Archangel Avacyn - Avacyn, the Purifier - Shadows over Innistrad Spoiler

Archangel Avacyn // Avacyn, the Purifier



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Avacyn, the Purifier Art

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  • Vycky

    Serra Angel, you will always be remembered.

    • Hedronal

      The change to new Avacyn isn’t all upside. Sometimes being legendary holds something back (thank goodness), and it’s easy to not want a death of one creature to damage the rest of yours.

  • Happy The Cat

    fun trick angel that learns that burn is the best option. girl after my own heart. I’m gonna call her Carla.
    nevertheless how does her color ID work? do you get to run rw with her beause of her flipside or just white?

    • MrAptronym

      Yes, color indicators (as you see on the night face) are counted as part of the color of the card. Both faces are always counted in EDH. She is WR for purposes of color identity in EDH.

    • Zombie

      She works the same as Garruk Relentless, who can only be played in G/B/X decks in EDH because of his flip side.

      Color indicators matter (The red dot on Avacyn’s flip).

  • MrAptronym

    Tabak is being cagey about whatever rules changes seem to be accompanying this set to prevent Avacyn from machinegunning your opponent to death with a sac outlet. Honestly I am more interested in seeing the new rules than just about any possible new card in the set.

    • Jacob Kuntz

      What rules need changing about her?

      • HBFF

        Well, if you sac XX scions (or something equivalent), you get X “transform Archangel Avacyn at the beginning of the next upkeep” triggers for XXX damage to all other creatures and opponents.

        Like Ludevic’s Test Subject, which the rules specifically state can have his transformation ability stacked twice so that it briefly knows the glory of being a 13/13 trampler before ending up inside his egg again.

        http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=221173

        • Jacob Kuntz

          Abilities triggering and abilities resolving are 2 different things. You can trigger the transform ability as many times as you want but she will only transform 1 time.

          • Not quite, you are right that they are different, but because of the way that names work it literally just means this card. So her ability actually says “When a non-Angel creature you control dies, transform this card at the beginning of the next upkeep”. Because of this each trigger will cause her to transform, and each time the Purifier side comes up a trigger to deal 3 to everything will go on to the stack.

          • MrAptronym

            Look at the rulings for bloodline keeper. This specific card has also been discussed elsewhere online too and yes, she keeps transforming. I can’t link to the magicjudge tumblr or tabak’s but they both talk about it. It appears they are changing the rules before the set comes out somehow but they are being cryptic.

      • MrAptronym

        With current rules you can stack delayed transformation triggers simply by letting more than one creature die during a turn. At the next upkeep she would transform back and forth between her front and back and her triggered ability would do damage every time she transformed to her back face. Sac 5 creatures? She does 9 damage.

        Though a judge did point out that it uses ‘when’ and not ‘whenever’ on the transform ability which is unusual. I wonder if this will be a change to transform, or a change to triggered abilities? Something else I can’t think of? I am imagining maybe triggered abilities starting with ‘when’ can’t trigger while another copy of the same ability is on the stack? I don’t even know if that’d work rules-wise.

        • Jazzyboy1

          That doesn’t actually work though, because the ability transforms ‘Archangel Avacyn’, not ‘Avacyn, the Purifier’. After she’s transformed once, the rest of the triggers would do nothing because their subject no longer exists with the name they’re looking for.

          So no rules changes are needed here.

          • MrAptronym

            Maybe that is the change they will implement, because as it currently stands, that is not true. see rule 201.4: “Text that refers to the object it’s on by name means just that particular object and not any other objects with that name, regardless of any name changes caused by game effects.”
            A name just means ‘this thing’ and transforming doesn’t change that.

          • Messa

            It doesn’t work that way as there is now way to transform “Avacyn, the Purifier”. The sac trigger will only flip “Archangel Avacyn”.

          • MrAptronym

            That is not how the rules work. Look at bloodline keeper’s rulings.

          • Messa

            The rule you posted only matters if there are other copies of Archangel Avacyn on the battlefield, like if an opponent controls one for instance.

          • MrAptronym

            No, it just refers generally to the use of self names.

        • Jazzyboy1

          Hmm, it seems you are right. Found a relevant ruling from Bloodline Keeper.
          “Activating Bloodline Keeper’s last ability multiple times will cause it to transform into Lord of Lineage, then back again, and so on.”

          I hope they don’t bother changing the rules to fix this though. Yes, it will make Avacyn combos really annoying for people when they happen, but they wouldn’t be amazingly consistent, so I don’t see a major problem with it that demands rule changes. In Standard, there aren’t enough cards to make the combo insane; and in other formats, there are faster combos that can do just as much damage. In EDH, it would just be yet another weird infinite combo deck.

          • MrAptronym

            Well saccing a board with five tokens on it would do 9 damage to everything but you and your 6/5 flier, which is a bit extreme since the time to respond isn’t great. Also, unintuitively, she will only wind up in her Night form if you lose an odd number of creatures during a turn… which is a bit bizarre?

            It looks like it will be changing though, Tabak has made comments suggesting it. How it changes and what that will affect is anyone’s guess. I like the slightly odd interaction right now, but they are probably changing it so they can make more cards like this, with extreme effects, or triggers that could fire off multiple times. It is probably just for expanding design space.

          • MTG fan

            But there isn’t anyway to transform her back, right? I’m so confused about transformation cards, please help!

          • Jazzyboy1

            Like MrAptronym quoted, “Text that refers to the object it’s on by name means just that particular object and not any other objects with that name, regardless of any name changes caused by game effects.”

            The transform trigger refers to the object that is Archangel Avacyn’s card on the field. When she transforms and her name changes, the trigger is still looking at just that card, regardless of what it’s name is now.

            So in context; when you trigger her multiple times, the first trigger transforms the card to Avacyn, the Purifier, then the next trigger transforms the card again, so back to Archangel Avacyn. Then the next trigger transforms her to Purifier again, and so on.

  • This card is phenomenal. Only owning 4 foils of this will quell my stiffy.

  • kyok

    This is so powerfull…

    Now control decks don´t need five mana wrath..

    She transforms.. and you can simply use a Kozilek’s Return or Chandra to wipe out the rest for 2 ou 3 more damage!! ( Total 5 ou 6)… she doesn´t take damage from her own ability.

    Also she can ambush in combat with indestructibility.

  • kyok

    Also with this… cards like Fiery Impulse have late game. 3 + 3 ( 6 damage to a creature).. and can deal with planeswalkers, even a Ugin at 9 ( 3 + 6 from the attack)

    FORMAT DEFINE CARD…

    Use Scions.

    • Anonim

      You won’t see both ugin and avacyn in standard

  • nightshade88

    Damn… It will be hard on my wallet as I’ll need the pre-release promo of this XD
    Possibly 2 copies as it is double face.

    Nice turn of events… Looking at the other transform card spoiled it seems that the Church of Avacyn is turning into something resembling the Spanish Inquisition. And…

    “No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!”

  • Saproling

    Pfff, they could have used this mythic slot for a white thallid and instead we got this, a nerfed thallid that flies…

  • Hmmmm…

    There’s a period joke her somewhere.

    • Melissa Juice

      Probably not.

    • wwww

      Oh, that explains all the blood on the back side.

  • Vectis

    Wow, this is awesome and super cool!

  • larryand corn

    i dont know about this one it just seems meh to me i mean its got a couple of bells and whistles thrown on a serra angel. and it can wipe out small guys IF transformed, its just not as epic as the original avacyn, but maybe thats point; maybe shes not the main event in innistrad… dramtaic music que

    • Fran Álvarez Méndez

      Nowadays, because it seems that they want change it, you can stack the tranformation, so, in an aristocrats, you can sacrifice 5 tokens and then, when she transforms will be like, trans, 3 damage, trans, trans anoter 3, trans and end with the 4/4 face, so you made 6 damage to all creatures (sulery clean the field) and 6 to each oponent and has a 4/4 flying vigilance who can repeat this. At first I saw her as you, but then I saw the potetial as finisher specially.

      And if you think on the name, now the rules says rule 201.4: “Text that refers to the object it’s on by name means just
      that particular object and not any other objects with that name, regardless of any name changes caused by game effects.” so it referes as the obeject and not the face. It’s like Ludevic’s Test Subject, you can stack the ransformation, so he return to the egg.

      http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=221173

  • Kyle Shevchenko

    It’s way better than the original in the aspect that it cost 5 to play

  • Soren Szilver

    i hate it when a creature loses something when it transforms, i can’t remember the name but there was another transformer in OG innistrad that also lost vigilance when it transformed. this is still a great card but losing a keyword is kinda awkward

  • Zombie

    While I think the card is cool there are some major design flaws that make me think it’s just kinda…not good. She contradicts herself.

    Her ability to give your creatures Indestructible until end of turn doesn’t really work with her second ability that requires one of your creatures to die.

    This means that outside of some very specific circumstances, namely a creature dying to power/toughness reducing effects (Infect as well) and sacrifice/edict effects, Avacyn probably won’t be able to flip the turn you play her.

    On top of that, her starting side is an anti-wrath ability that protects your creatures, and then she becomes a wrath spell that hurts your own creatures.

    While I love this flavor-wise/thematically, how does this card actually help you unless you’re playing nothing with lower than 4 toughness?

    Sure she’ll save your creatures on ETB, but then she immediately turns around and wipes all of your smaller creatures when she flips.

    This means that your opponent, if they have at least a single spot removal spell, that they can kill one of your larger creatures that dodges Avacyn’s flip effect, and Avacyn will wipe your own board for them. Sure that 6/5 body is still relevant, but you likely just ended your chance at winning a race because of that ability if that’s what the board was building to.

    This just feels like one of those cards that absolutely hit it out of the ballpark on flavor, but the actual functionality of the card suffers because of it. A perfect example of a card that gets both aspects perfectly right is a card like Huntmaster of the Fells, a card I consider to be one of the best designed creatures in Magic.

    • Jazzyboy1

      Her ability to give your creatures indestructible until end of turn works very well with her flip side.

      And you’re rarely going to care at all about her first ability preventing you from flipping her, because you can still sacc creatures or just bolt them in response to Avacyn’s own ETB trigger.

      If you can flip her the same turn that you play her, then her anti-wrath makes her flip side’s wrath effect entirely one-sided. I’d say that’s great self-synergy.

      • Kenny Gillan

        You can flip her t5 and get both sides. Assuming you have at least one creature in board; Untap, flash her in, 1 mana kill spell your one guy. Upkeep, she flips. If you have more than one guy, alpha strike. Edit: wrong, nvm.

        • Guest

          Doesn’t work. Players can’t do anything before upkeep happens.

          • Hedronal

            I kind of want to see her work with Paradox Haze now.

      • Zombie

        It doesn’t, though, because they’re indestructible and she’s not going to flip and deal damage to your indestructible creatures.

        She only functions at peak capacity with a sac outlet. If you flash her in, grant Indestructible, your creatures aren’t dying to damage unless you’re burning your own resources to kill your own creature while her trigger is on the stack. Which seems like a neat, tricksy play, but isn’t actually that good.

        There’s very limited ways to get her to flip the same turn you play her. And this limits your deck building options as a result.

        You can’t even flash her in as a response to a hard removal spell if you want her to flip, because that creature won’t die and won’t cause her to flip.

        She’ll be okay in Standard with decks that have Eldrazi Scions, but that’s about it. She’s just not reliable because her two sides work against eachother from a basic design standpoint.

        The cards is at odds with itself. That doesn’t bode well for its overall playability.

        If she makes it out of Standard I’ll be surprised. She’s not good enough for Bant or UWR Flash, as she’s a Legendary Angel and her trigger can’t be abused by Restoration Angel, Phantasmal Image, or Phyrexian Metamorph. And those are the only archetypes that can actually use her reasonably well. And even still those decks would rather have something like Dauntless Escort or Loxodon Hierarch.

    • Kenny Gillan

      Flash her in opponents end step. Untap on your turn. Lightning bolt your own snapcaster. It dies. Upkeep. Avacyn flips. Respond to the deal 3. Flash in Archangel Avacyn. You save your other snapcaster. Your opponents creatures all get hit for 3. Swing for 8 (uwr control modern) this card is absolutely insane in power level. Your opponents creatures ALL take 3 as well, and so do they.

      • If you bolt after you untap, you are bolting in your upkeep.

        • Kenny Gillan

          You right, my B

    • Thomas Kunz

      I really like her with scions and cards with noticeably big butts who cannot lie, as an aggro player this card is both a nightmare and a wet dream, flash her in to completely blow out an opponents swings and trade favorably however you like then your turn you swing with everything, sac a few scions, play something with more than 3 toughness with your new influx of mana, and wipe your opponents board with several big dudes they now have to deal with.

    • Richard Ashendale

      I highly doubt she will be making any serious waves outside of standard for competetive formats, but even in standard shes a 4/4 F/V make a stand, and in the worst case her flip will net you a bit of time.

      I can see her being excellent as a boros commander though, she does multiple things, has relevant evergreens, and is pretty cheap costed. Also shes a dual-identity commander with flash. Aside from commander and goofy kitchen table, I can’t see her having much use.

      • Zombie

        Her wrath effect isn’t relevant in EDH, if it was then cards like Anger of the Gods, Whipflare, etc would see a TON more play.

        As far as EDH is concerned I’d consider her basically bottom of Tier 2, where Tier 3 is basically just the absolute worst R/W has in terms of Generals.

        She’d be neat to play off of Kaalia and that’s about it.

        But even her M15 version is a far better card in EDH than this one, and the original Avacyn is one of the best cards ever printed for EDH period.

        There’s no way she can contend with Aurelia, the Warleader or Gisela, Blade of Goldknight. I’d even consider her a worse General than Anax and Cymede, honestly.

        The only R/W EDH Generals I can think of that are worse than Archangel Avacyn would be:

        – Basandra, Battle Seraph

        – Brion Stoutarm (Unless your EDH playgroup considers non-combat damage dealt by Generals damage that counts towards Commander-Damage, then Brion is Tier 1 in that case)

        – Jor Kadeen (Simply because building an equipment deck that’s not Nahiri is dumb)

        – Razia, Boros Archangel (Solely based on mana cost. She’s by far and away the worst R/W EDH General)

        • Richard Ashendale

          I can see your point. Let me reword that: I would have fun playing her as my commander in kitchen table EDH.

    • Coby Folk

      The idea is to trade adventitiously in-combat for their guys that her flip won’t kill, then kill the others the next turn.

      This card will be amazing in U/W/X decks in standard, namely with things like skyspawner and Gideon, and will make attacking into 5 open mana more scary than it’s probably ever been. She will be format warping and it’s a huge mistake to underestimate her, especially to the extent that you have.

      • Zombie

        Except for the part where she kills every Skyspawner, Scion, and Gideon token when she flips

        • Coby Folk

          The skyspwaners, knight allies, and namely the scions are a MEANS to get her to flip. You don’t care if she kills them, especially if you have a Gideon already to start reestablishing right after the flip, or even animate and swing for a 14 point turn (pressuring lethal in the air the next turn)

          • Zombie

            Wiping your whole board to play a 6/5 when normal decks can just go bigger and wider than that anyway without killing their own creatures is not a good thing.

          • Coby Folk

            Your “whole board” of maybe 2-3 basically free and inconsiquential creatures? Oh noooo.

            The “wider” part is solved by the flip and combat tricks, and the “bigger” part is questionable at best.

          • Zombie

            If you think 6/5 is cream of the crop on creature body size then you really need to play against Eldrazi some more.

          • Coby Folk

            And if you can’t see why this creature is insane then you really need to play some more magic in general.

          • Zombie

            I play Vintage, Legacy, Modern, and EDH. I’ve also played at the 2 most recent Modern GP’s. I play Modern FNM’s every week and Legacy events every weekend. As far as playing Magic goes I think I play it enough.

            And in my opinion, this new Avacyn isn’t that great. Sure she’ll probably see Standard play, but it’s Baby’s First Format, if something’s even barely touching the cusp of playable in a new set it’s playable in Standard.

            I’d honestly rate her lower than Thing in the Ice // Awoken Horror, to be completely blunt here.

            The new Avacyn has next to zero playability outside of Standard, anyway, so I couldn’t care less what she does in Standard.

  • Zeph

    She’s not on that leaked checklist card, is she? How very odd. Could there be another checklist card? Wasn’t she put on the leaked one for some reason?

    • Rockstick

      Probably a second checklist for legendaries/PWs. That would also mean that Arlinn has a chance being in SoI

    • De’Elgathor

      Could be a legendary checklist, if they decide to have more than one legendary flip creature.

    • Hedronal

      Given that the other four transform cards we’ve seen of this set are on that checklist, are uncommons, and nothin on the list sounds at all like a character or plot-relevant item, that there is another checklist. That said, a list just for legends and planeswalkers seems silly and arbitrary to me, so I assume that rarity is the dividing factor, and that planeswalkers will still be mythic, and legends will still be mythic or rare.

  • Chaospyke

    Saw this release and thought “Yay, Boros EDH” Then i got sad cuz I can’t have her as my Commander.

    • wwww

      The color identity of this Avacyn is white and red. You can put it in any deck that run at least those two color, and you can even run her as your commander for Boros decks.

      • Chaospyke

        I understand how you’d think that, but its not ‘this’ Avacyn, its ‘these’ Avacyn(s?).

        Arcangel and Purifier aren’t one and the same despite being the same physical card.
        I could have both Purifier and Archangel on the field with out triggering Legendary Rule.

        Yes, this card could go in a Boros EDH deck, but it couldn’t be the commander because Archangel is white while Purifier is red. She shoots herself in the foot.

        • Hedronal

          For the purposes of color identity, it’s this Avacyn. Color identity counts the card as a whole.

        • Vincent Godin-Filion

          The color of the card is either white or red, depending on the side it’s on. But Commander’s COLOR IDENTITY works differently. It takes into account each flip sides, and each mana symbols inside its text box. So yeah, this card can be a Boros Commander, even though during play it’s never both colors at the same time.

        • Grammarian

          Avaci

  • Snievan

    Looks like Avacyn discovered Hot Topic.

  • FourDoughnut

    So Glory is pretty much the ideal card for this. Sac it to make her flip then give your creatures prot red from the grave

  • wwww

    Still doesn’t beat Baneslayer Angel. Garbage card.

    Back in the 90s, Serra Angel was considered one of the most powerful creature in the whole game. Time has changed a lot since then. lol

    Giving indestructible to all your creatures at instant speed isn’t a new thing. We already have Boros Charm, Make a stand and Rootborn Defense. It’s however the first time we have this stapled on a creature.

    Instant speed indestructible to all your creatures is a very powerful effect. It’s useful to dodge removals, especially sweepers, or to do some surprising combat trick and gain board advantage. Getting a revealant threat with this effect is really awesome.

    The flip effect is very powerful too. You get something similar to Thunder Dragon, but it affects every creatures and opponents, costs less, but will only triggers under one condition, one of your creatures must die. However, you must build around it a little bit because she will deal damage to your creatures too. The thing I don’t understand is why she doesn’t deal 3 damages to you too. Your creatures aren’t pure, your opponents pure, but you man, YOU are pure. Probably it’s like that so she doesn’t kill you when you’re losing, but come on, consistency would have been appreciated.

    It will definitely see plays in Standard, maybe in Modern (when the Eldrazi madness will end) and she looks like a good addition to RWx EDH decks. I foresee her in slower aggro deck with strong/resistant creatures or midrange deck because indestructible is powerful and the burn will not affect them too hard, but not in rush aggro because they will lose too much creatures if Avacyn flips and costs too much manas, and not in control that doesn’t have a significant amount of creatures because the indestructible will be kind of useless and the sweeper will not trigger consistently.

    • Poor planeser

      Of course you’re pure. You’re the one who summoned her with white mana. I do feel her flip should keep vigilance, maybe deals 3 to non-angels, or non-white.

      • wwww

        Well, she looks like she becomes a little bit insane on her transformed side, so it makes sense that she loses Vigilance.

  • Daniel Kaine Allen

    Not quite as good as angel of hope, but definitely better than guardian angel. I definitely want.

  • FTV: Expensive Cards

    Here’s hoping really hard that the powerpuffs also get flip cards!

    • wisdomseyes

      clip wings suggests they probably go mad like avacyn, but also that one of Blossom falls

      I just want the storied to be released so I know what the hell is going on

  • Captain Mateo

    It seems like everybody is forgetting we have Make a Stand… give all your creatures indestructible in response to flipping or during untap step if you want to keep your creatures in Standard at least.

  • Nanya

    Neat, going into Kaalia…

    Now what to take out?

    • Goliathan

      Nothing, don’t run this. It will kill Kaalia.

  • Nebulium

    I know the whole black/white angel trope is really played out but I still would have loved it for edh. This will be fun for Boris though. Also its pretty neat that if you just want a strictly better Serra angel, you just do angel tribal. Maybe not the best idea, but neat nonetheless.

  • LightandFire676

    Well. This is gonna be worth GOBS. It’s really similar to Huntmaster of the Fells in that it’s a midrange, flipside creature with tons of value no matter what it’s doing. I think this will be the next big card in standard, and have it’s heyday like Wingmate Roc, Siege Rhino, and Ojutai.

  • PheonixTheFox

    this makes me cry…

  • dkdkdkdksmdmdkdon

    She could see play in a Junk/Abzan or even just Orzhov midrange deck with sac outlets. Play Avacyn, sac an Eldrazi Scion and flip her while your board is indestructible.

    • doskskdoemejdkdn

      oops, didn’t see that “next upkeep” clause.

  • FanOfLore

    Calling it right now. Nahiri, Avacyn and Sorin are all in some love triangle and Avacyn suspected they were planeswalking to meet each other so Avacyn hired Jace and Tamiyo to get the proof. This is her before and after Jace gives her the proof. Jace didn’t last very long.

    • Jazzyboy1

      My only problem with this is that you made the common mistake of not understanding how triangles work.

      A love triangle implies that one person is in love with another, which is shown by a line. Then that other person has to be in love with another person, who is in love with the original.

      So that would mean that Sorin is in love with Avacyn, and Avacyn is in love with Nahiri, and Nahiri is in love with Sorin.(or Avacyn is in love with Sorin, Sorin is in love with Nahiri and Nahiri is in love with Avacyn. Mix and match)

      Your kind of love triangle, which I assume is Nahiri and Avacyn both being in love with Sorin; would just be two lines to Sorin. Which would not make a triangle. Triangles have three sides, not two.

      • FanOfLore

        The only two definitions of love triangle that I found online seem to support the fake story I made up on the spot. They do not state that each person has to be in love with the others, but simply a relationship, friendship included. In my fake scenario, Avacyn and Nahiri were friends.

      • Hedronal

        Love triangles work on the principle of merely having three points (people). They resist the mathematical definition, and the phrase may be too far gone by now.

  • Lord_of_Riots

    If the flip rules change, then this goes from a spectacular card to a good one. Here’s hoping that doesn’t happen.

    • Kenny Gillan

      Why would the flip rules change?

      • Lord_of_Riots

        They’ve hinted that we don’t yet know how Avacyn’s ability interacts with the current rules, which leads me to believe that they are planning a change to flip rules enabling multiple flips.

        As of now, should Avacyn witness 2 creatures die, she will nuke the table after she returns to White Avacyn, thus protecting your creatures from her damage. To me that seems like somewhat of a flavor fail, and I think that they know that and are planning a rules change akin to “She can’t flip again because her name changes”, or something similar.

        • Hedronal

          She wouldn’t protect your creatures, that only happens when she enters the battlefield.

          • Lord_of_Riots

            Oh right, good catch. Must have assumed EtB after the origins walkers.

      • De’Elgathor

        It will, according to an article today. From said article:
        “Here’s the new rule: if a DFC has an activated or triggered ability that transforms it, that permanent transforms only if it hasn’t since that ability was put on the stack.”

  • Deadly Berry

    -“I have 5 mana up and a small army of creatures; destroy one, I dare you! Indestructible muahaha!”
    -“And now I transform my super legendary and…. Ugh it killed my other creatures”

    I was expecting much more for one of the premier angels in the recent years. Did they really have to make her like this? definitely not. Does it satisfy the lore? It does, but it could have accomplished the same lore-wise and not be a mess of a card. The functionality is subpar and not a card anyone would use outside of a casual play group (and a very casual one) regardless of format. Even the P/T are subpar; 4/4 for 5 mana and okayish abilities don’t make up for it; once transformed it becomes 6/5 flier, not even first strike or trample to appeal its “bloodlust”… very meh. Maybe if you only have 1 creature and you sacrifice it to flip her, or if your creatures have protection from red, or… A lot of ‘ifs’ to make this work out. You can’t even flip her at instant speed because she does so at the beginning of the next upkeep, so your creatures will no longer be indestructible by then. Can’t rate her more than 1/10 (yes, she’s that awkward).

    I really dislike what they did with Avacyn, I wish they spoiled her much later. Son, I am disappoint.

    • Kenny Gillan

      Are you trolling? Haha. You understand it is a wrath-like effect that leaves you with a 6/5 that can attack the same turn it wiped? Also the deal 3 hits the opponent, so assuming you have counter backup to protect her, you hit for 9 the turn she flips assuming no opposing fliers. This is a bomb in limited, a nuke in constructed. Would you play baneslayer angel in constructed? Would you play a baneslayer with flash? Would you play a baneslayer that wipes the board? I would assume yes to all. AKA Archangel Avacyn.

      • Hedronal

        Baneslayer Angel gains you life. This Avacyn kills your things in a hard to control trigger. Disagreeing is one thing, but troll accusations are ridiculous.

        • Kenny Gillan

          Im guessing you didnt get the haha right after, it wasnt a real accusation. “Are you trolling? haha” it was a sarcastictic laugh, not a mean one. Didn’t mean it other than to joke.

          • Hedronal

            Ah, internet sarcasm. That’s why I’m in favor of a sarcasm punctuation mark.

          • Julna Buras

            What we really need is a full sarcasm font.

      • Deadly Berry

        Baneslayer is 10 times better than this Avacyn, much more linear and always accomplishes the same, either good defense or offense. This Avacyn can protect you mid game, but the lack of decent defenses like protection (as baneslayer has) or first strike (as Baneslayer has) or even lifesteal (again Baneslayer) causes her to fall off vs other white creatures of same mana cost, and not to mention the lackluster P/T. You mentioned she wipes the board and you’re right there, it wipes your side of the board perfectly well, if you’re running big creatures you don’t have to worry about it, but white seldom does that.

        Regardless of the format you play you must respect the principle of card advantage and this Avacyn is against that principle. She has a defective design.

        • Kenny Gillan

          Archangel Avacyn is literally card advantage in every way possible??? Your opponent goes to kill your creature, response: flash Archangel l Avacyn in. 2 for 1. Swing in. Your opponent has no good blocks. You now have a 4/4 flier thay have to worry about. They cant go below 3 life now. You seem to think that your boardstate will have 5 or 6 creatures with <= 3 defense once you play this card and it just kills your own creatures. When she flips she does 3 to EVERYTHING but you and her and is now 6/5 flier. I dont touch standard as I think it is a bad format so I'm mostly talking about modern but I fit 3 copys into my UWR control build where the other creatures I have are 3 Restoration Angels (they dont flip Archangel Avacyn), 3 snapcaster mage, 4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, 2 wall of omens and 2 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker (and 4 Celestial Colonnade). I went more creature heavy so Archangel Avacyn is easier to flip and deal 3 to EVERYTHING. What survives on my board? Restoration Angels and Wall of Omens. If Jace had already flipped, Jace survives. Only Kiki-Jiki dying would be unfortunate, however if it kills 4 of my opponents creatures sure I'll 5-1 my opponent. I imagine when Archangel Avacyn flips she casts lightning bolt on all creatures and your opponent. Are they playing 4 touggness creatures? Oh darn it didnt kill them! Good thing ElectrolyE is a card to kill 2 of them off and draw a card. This card is going to define standard when it is released. She WILL find a home in modern. There is a reason its preordering at over 20 dollars and I only expect that price to increase.

    • Coby Folk

      You seem to have no idea how crazy of a card this is.

    • wwww

      The greed is real.

      It’s already extremely powerful to have a flash Serra Angel that gives indestructible to everybody, this card plus have a little sweeper that also burns only opponents (not you) stapled on it. This card is powerful enough, it might even be too much (only playtest will confirm that).

      • wwww

        only opponents LIFE POINTS (not youRS) stapled on it.*

        In case I was not clear.

        • Deadly Berry

          those 3 damage dealt won’t win you any game, the biggest flaw is that it also kills your creatures, the ones you have been stacking up over the previous 4-6 turns, the same creatures you tried to save with the indestructible clause. White is known for functioning well with creatures, and this avacyn is against that principle.

          And for the record no, a serra angel with flash is not powerful in T2 or any format except limited.

          • Yoeri

            The real question here is: Would you play an “Anger of the Gods” in the same deck as you would play a “Serra Angel”, you could see the indestructible and lightning bolt to the face clause as a bonus. I know I would. And please don’t tell us that a Serra Angel with flash and indestructible at the first turn isn’t a good card, otherwise I would strongly recommend to reconsider your evaluation skills.

  • GeneralGenerousGenesis

    >functionality

    Her abilities aren’t supposed to work together because it’s a representation of her personality shift.

    “I am your salvation”
    [something dies]
    “What’s the point”
    [flip]
    “Witness Me”

    • Daniel Kaine Allen

      I very much disagree with you, her abilities work together wonderfully if you know what youre doing. Flash in during opponents combat phase after attackers are declared, opponents creatures are weakened, sac an eldrazi or other form of sac outlet, avacyn flips, and congrats, your creatures are still indestructible and everything else gets wailed on.

      • NC

        ‘Beginning of the next upkeep’

        • Daniel Kaine Allen

          Good point. My brain overlooked that part. Still, a mass bolt is a mass bolt and i wouldnt be to upset. Besides, white has plenty of toughness boosters

  • kmk888

    This card is stunningly good. Yes, the abilities conflict in certain cases. That is partly for flavor reasons but it also makes the card super interesting to build and play with. But are you missing the 4/4 flash vigilant flyer that grants indestructible to the team?? Are you blind?

    A good deck builder would take this card and put it in a deck with cards that have greater than 3 toughness, the ability to sacrifice themselves at instant speed, or both. Nantuko Husk and Felidar Cub can already sacrifice themselves at instant speed and in a realm like Innistrad there’s sure to be cards like Alchemist’s Apprentice. More importantly, Eldrazi Scions allow you to ramp to Avacyn and use her as an board wipe for the very next upkeep.

    But the main point is that even without building around her she’s just a great way to spend 5 mana. A 4/4 flash vigilant flyer? Sure! A boardwipe that leaves you with a 6/5 flyer?? Hell yeah!

    • Hedronal

      Most of what you said I agree with, but part of it leads me to believe that you don’t (or didn’t) know that the indestructible is on her first turn, and she transforms no earlier than the next, once the indestructible is gone.

      • Vixin Xiviir

        That’s why he mentioned the sacrifice outlets- they get around indestructible. Which would be super nice, because then you can flip her and only wipe the opponents board. It’s a nice, janky combo.

        • Hedronal

          Her transform trigger specifically says that she transforms “at the beginning of the next upkeep”, meaning after the indestructible is gone. Even if something dies on the turn she comes into play, the damage doesn’t happen then.

  • Andy Upton

    questions: #1. if she is a general for edh. is the deck white, or white/red? #2. if the answer for #1 is white, then is she useable in an orzhov edh deck?

    • nightshade88

      She is both White AND Red as color identity. So unless your Orzhov deck is not in the Kaalia colord you will not be able to use her.

      • Sani

        Or 5 color.

  • Edward

    I think this card will be amazing with Eerie Interlude. You can flash it in to stop an attack then sac something. Next turn you use Eerie Interlude before Avacyn’s effect goes off targeting anything that would die probably killing off at least a few creatures your opponent controls. Then attack with whatever is left. If you don’t kill the opponent then you still get all the creatures back at end phase getting any enter the battlefield effects as well as blockers.

    • nightshade88

      It probably fares better with Eldrazi Displacer (at least until it rotates out).
      – During your upkeep she transforms and the wipe effect goes on the stack;
      – flicker her with Displacer and let that effect resolve;
      – when she returns to the battlefield she will return white-face up, making your creatures indestructible again;
      – attack with a bunch of indestructible creatures on the same turn.
      This is unless your opponent has a Bonds of Mortality on the field XD

  • nightshade88

    Just have to say this… She is NOT STRICTLY BETTER than Serra Angel…
    Why?
    Legendary: vulnerable to legendary-killing shenanigans and you can only have 1 at a time (or 2 if one is transformed).

    At the moment the only “strictly better” than Serra Angel is Herald of the Host.

    This said… I would play Avacyn over poor old Serra Angel any time.

    • really?

      You are crazy! there are a ton of better angels. Archangel of Thune, Baneslayer Angel, Karmic Guide, ect, ect just to name a few with her same mana cost. I am not sure of your logic, Serra will always be that awesome angel from back in the day, but come on. Really

      • nightshade88

        They are better, but not strictly better.
        The definition of strictly better is something that either does she same things and more for the same(or lower) cost OR does the same things for a lower cost altogether.

        Archangel of Thune, Baneslayer, Karmic… They do not have vigilance. This alone makes them NOT strictly better because they can’t do the same things (attack without tapping).

        Note that, BETTER DOES NOT MEAN STRICTLY BETTER.

        Example:
        Shock: R, instant, deal 2 damage to target creature or player.

        Better card (in terms of damage)
        Chain Lightning: R, sorcery, deals 3 to targer creature or player, that player or creature controller can pay RR to copy this spell.

        Strictly Better card:
        Lightning Bolt: R, instant, deals 3 damage to target creature or player.

        Chain Lightning can be arguably better than shock as it allows you to do 3 damage at the cost of R. But it is at sorcery speed, so it can’t do all that Shock can do. Thus it is not strictly better.
        Lightnng Bolt on the ther hand is a Shock with an +1 damage. It does everything shock does and does it better. Thus it is strictly better.

        All the angels you pointed are NOT strictly better than Serra Angel.
        They re better cards, allright, but not strictly better if you stand by the definition of “strictly better”.

        • really

          the new avacyn is strictly better in my book. The legend rule would not lower it. Flash and making my creatures indestructible trumps the legend rule. Plus she gets bigger and bolts everything.

          Plus who really cares about strictly better when it comes to an angels. I can see judging a cheap instant or sorcery like lightning bolt. but when there are a million angels that are all not “strictly” comparable who cares.

          • Jade

            Strictly better implies that it does everything the other card does, PLUS a new ability with no drawback. Legendary is a drawback. Mandatory board-wipe transformation is a drawback (sometimes). This card is BETTER, but not “strictly better”.

            Strictly Better isn’t a “point of view” term, it’s a card design term. This card isn’t even strictly better than Storm Crow, because it isn’t blue and it is legendary. It is heaps better. But “strict” by definition implies a very narrow set of guidelines for comparison. Comparing this card to Storm Crow is comparing apples to oranges. Comparing it to Serra Angel is comparing a Red Delicious to a Granny Smith. You may prefer one, but it is not better always. Granny Smith is better in pies, in my opinion.

            This is a fairly silly debate that comes up every time something like this is spoiled. But it is important to think about from a deck building perspective. There is no time I would ever choose Serra Angel over Herald of the Host if both were available. Just like, if I had to choose one, I would never choose Shock over Lightning Bolt. These are strictly better. If Wizards prints a Strictly Better card, valid in all the same formats, it means the old version is now a completely useless card, since there is no time you would pick it over the better choice. That adds to power creep and destroys a small part of the design space, since cards that would have been equally powered with the old version now have no real place in the new meta. That would be like if selective breeding made a new apple that tasted exactly the same as a Red Delicious, but was twice as good for you. Or a Granny Smith that made your pies twice as scrumptious.

            It’s like the term “Functional Reprint”, you can only use the term from a design perspective if it is exactly the same card with a different name. Something “pretty close but not quite a functional reprint” is just a card using similar design space, but is still a new card. Calling a Red Delicious a “Big Red” is a functional reprint. Gala apples taste similar, but are not the same.

            I can think of some times I would pick Serra Angel over this, though not many. Therefor, this is not “Strictly” better.

            This is stuff that Wizards design staff has actually spoken about in articles and interviews. For people who care about the game from a design perspective (mostly batshit insane maths people like me), it matters. Serra Angel is better in pies, but new Avacyn is almost always better in your deck.

          • EJ

            To be fair, very few cards are strictly better than Storm Crow.

          • spamboy

            i would argue that in magic there can never be a card that is strictly better

            for example, lightning bolt might be considered strictly better than shock…except that there may very well be times that doing two damage is better than three, for any variety of reasons (hitting a specific damage total, not triggering a threshold, etc)

            even if a card allowed for variability, as in, shock vs a card that said, for one red, to do 2 or 3 damage to a target, then in the ridiculous corner case of having your turn mindslavered that would also not be strictly better for you

            but your definition is perfect for a card in a vacuum =)

          • troll u later

            I agree with you. These clowns are taking the strictly better definition and using it the way it was not meant to be. When building a deck it is used to figure out which card is the best choice. Not to be used for just judging random cards. This topic is so pointless, but I do give props for the responses.

          • go back to school

            I agree! NIGHTSHADE88 is obviously a noob that thinks he is not anymore. The definition is clear on strictly. But the using this way is incorrect, time to go back to magic school. Just because you find out a definition of a magic term doesn’t mean its time bend it for no good reason. This is for deck making strategy.

          • Hedronal

            I would like to thank you for taking the time to make such a thorough explanation of what strictly better means, complete with applicable examples and comparisons. I am documenting this for future propagation.

          • nightshade88

            Exactly that ^_^
            You made it clear as day… And Granny Smith are damn good apples imo XD

          • EJ

            nightshade88 isn’t saying this isn’t a good card. They’re saying that this card doesn’t fit the dictionary definition of “strictly better”. “Strictly better” means something. An Underground Sea isn’t strictly better than a basic Island. That doesn’t mean it’s not a good card.

            A legendary creature cannot be “strictly” better than a non-legendary creature. A non-legendary creature cannot be “strictly” better than a legendary creature. Even if one of them is a 0/1 for 10 mana and the other is a 10/10 for 1 mana.

            This is just the definition of strictly better, emphasis on “strictly”.

          • Daniel Kaine Allen

            I disagree, just slightly, a 10/10 for 1 would be majorly OP because no matter the text, there would be some stupid way to exploit it. Im done now

          • EJ

            We’re not discussing the word “better”. We’re discussing the word “STRICTLY”.

            Mons’ Goblin Raiders is a 1/1 Goblin for R.

            Raging Goblin is a 1/1 Goblin with haste for R.

            Raging Goblin is STRICTLY better than Mons’ Goblin Raiders. It is the exact same casting cost, the exact same power and toughness, the exact same creature type, but it has an upside which you can either choose to take advantage of or not.

            Goblin Guide is a 2/2 Goblin with haste but when it deals combat damage to your opponent, the opponent reveals the top card of their library and if its a land they put it into their hand.

            Goblin Guide is over $40 where Raging Goblin and Mons’ Goblin Raiders are bulk commons.

            But Goblin Guide is not STRICTLY better than Raging Goblin. It is not STRICTLY worse than Raging Goblin. It is simply a different card.

            Examples of cards which are STRICTLY better or STRICTLY worse than other cards are fairly unusual. Most of the time, there is enough of a difference between two cards that the word STRICTLY does not apply.

          • Daniel Kaine Allen

            I was just being a [email protected]$$. You didnt need to go all debate team on me. Besides i think this whole conversation is getting a bit out of hand.

          • MrAptronym

            There is a 12/12 Trample for 1 (Phyrexian Dreadnought) and Death’s Shadow is (sort of) a 13/13 for B (Death’s Shadow). And you were right! both have been exploited in decks.

    • Really

      This Avacyn and all the Avacyns are clearly better!

      • Daniel Kaine Allen

        I disagree, guardian angel isnt really that great. Too costly

        • serre vs avacyn

          She is the same mana cost.

          • Daniel Kaine Allen

            The base mana cost is the same yes. But in order to actually make use of guardian angel’s abilities costs way to much mana. Not to mention any decent dual color aggro deck can make short work of guardian angel’s attempts to block damage. Edit: and she actually isnt the same mana cost, guardian angel costs an additional white mana in place of a generic mana. And to touch back on the dual color aggro deck scenario, it would cost 14 mana just to stop both colors from hitting, and in the event you’re fighting a colorless deck, she’s nothing more than a 5/4 flying and vigilance.

          • serra vs avacyn

            ok serra total mana cost is 5 and the guardians total mana cost is 5 correct? they both have flying and vigilance correct? Serra cant do anything else. The guardian for 2 mana can prevent all damage from a color source that is dealt to another creature. Is a bit expensive but it is still one more ability that Serra doesnt have. 3 white mana is no problem with a dual colored deck, maybe with three colors.

            To sum this up Serra cost 5 mana has flying and vig. Avacyn cost 5 has flying a vig and 2 other abilities one that is awesome. Im confused why you think serra is better. This is under the stictly better part of this chat. Are you thinking strictly better? Then i agree serra is strictly better only because she is not legendary and 1 extra white mana. But if you are talking better you are wrong very wrong.

          • Daniel Kaine Allen

            I think archangel avacyn is better. Not serra lol. Bit of a mix-up, but to another point, i still wouldnt place guardian angel to highly above serra anyway. Imo its just way too much mana unless youre ramping, in which case just slaps guardian angel into a rather niche group considering she doesnt have haste. So any bonus that could come from those abilities has to take a back seat until the following turn, by then she has probably been blown up, unless youre playing some form of control, which is going to detract a bit from any ramp you may be throwing around

          • serra vs avacyn

            LOL i agree archangel is way better. This whole forum is so mixed up. I think the guy that brought up the whole strictly better and serra was trolling or something. He really made a mess of things.

    • Ozymandias

      If you need multible copies of a 5 cost creature you are probably not going to win the game anyways, so yeah I still say it’s strictly better than serra angel.

  • ManaBoy123

    I think they will produce a planeswalker this wednesday when the next part of the story comes out.

  • Together Alone

    Can you have two of these in play at once? one flipped and one not? You coul dflip one and then play another and save your stuff? I’m unfamiliar with how the legend rule applies to flip cards.

    • Kenny Gillan

      Yes

    • Hedronal

      Different names mean the legend rule allows it.

    • Together Alone

      Ok so, you could in theory play this on the end of the opponents turn, then sac an eldrazi token or something on your turn, then play a second one on the your opponents following turn and save your stuff.

      • Happy The Cat

        well, the 1st would flip on your turn so that wouldn’t exactly work but when it does flip you can respond to the damage once it is put on the stack by casting the 2nd one to gain indestructible. you will have to state how you are putting these triggers on the stack and if a creature you control dies the 2nd will flip and kill both Avacyns without having the 2nd’s damage going on the stack (if you don’t choose to keep it that is).

  • nightshade88

    In before anyone asks it. The new rules on transformation do not allow multiple transformations to trigger anymore. So, no matter how many creatures die, Avacyn will only transform once, unless there is another effect that transforms her back after the first transformation resolves (like if you make her human somwhow and then play moonmist).

    • Hedronal

      Not before people have asked it, but still nice to have another post saying.

  • Julna Buras

    How do rarities work with transform cards? Does a rare or mythic transformer take the spot of the rare in the pack, or does every pack come with a random transform card?

    • Jazzyboy1

      I assume they just take their relevant spots depending on their own rarities. Like Origins and the original Innistrad.

      Unless you meant checklists, in which case I think they were in the token slot for Origins and the original Innistrad, so it’ll probably the same again.

      • They replaced lands, not tokens.

        • Jazzyboy1

          Oh okay, thanks. I never actually bought any Origins boosters and I wasn’t around for the original Innistrad so I wasn’t sure. A quick look on Gamepedia told me that they took up the token/advertisement slot in seeded boosters at prereleases. I assumed it was the same for the real boosters.

    • Hugo Rioux

      If i remember well when Innistrad came out, you had one flip card per pack with random rarity. The slot for rare/mythic stayed unchange and the token slot can be a checklist, a token or a “pub” card.

      • The land could be a checklist, but otherwise yeah.

    • MrAptronym

      In Innistrad they were their own slot, in origins they took a rare slot. MaRo has said every pack should get a DFC so I am assuming that sometimes that might be a rare DFC and is separate from the normal rare.

      I remember when Innistrad came out and I got a pack with 2 mythics and a rare. I was super excited, even if none of them were terribly good.

      • Derek Mullins

        I’d love one of those mythical 3 mythic packs… Mythic Flip, Mythic Foil, and Mythic. Man.

  • aswanlikeneck

    Love those heels?

  • Rubz

    Let’s put this into perspective.. Five is a little costy but it’s an angel so understandable. What it does with a flash counter removal type thing is really good, and vigilance is really nice to, but I’m not really digging her transformation, what do you guys think?

    • Dustin Lanning

      i suppose it is just the story she has transformed into a manaic so they need to show that.

  • NC

    …hold up mana, flash her in on your untap, sac a scion, watch the world burn? Would that work? Sure, no mana for the turn, but at least you got to have your indestructible and eat your burn too.

    • TogetherAlone

      She flips on next upkeep. So she will likely get your other creatures killed.

    • Happy The Cat

      unless you have a trigger during untap that you can respond to you wont be able to do this. This Avacyn checks at the beginning of your upkeep not during so you never get a chance.

      • NC

        Turns out you can’t do things during untap anyways.

        • Happy The Cat

          if you have an Inspired card from theros block you can respond to it’s trigger.
          but you can respond to avacyn’s wraith when she flips with a 2nd copy.

          • Lucas Pearson

            anything that would trigger at the untap step is delayed until the upkeep step its in the rules

          • Happy The Cat

            but you can respond when it is put on the stack, that is separate from the ability itself, you can respond to inspired creatures when they would untap

  • PheonixTheFox

    Is it just me or did avacyn look kinda vampire-y in the video when she attacked jace? Glowing black/red eyes and fangs.

    • nightshade88

      If you stop the video and look at Avacyn’s face you might notice that she hasn’t got protruding vampiric fangs (both her and the glass).

    • lonewolf

      care to share that link?

  • Nebulium

    Vedalken Orrery and paradox haze are the only non-convoluted ways I can think of to make her transform trigger not wipe out your stuff. They and a sacrifice outlet will let you play her and sac something on your first upkeep to let her transform in the second. Still a little much for the effect but its not like the orrery or haze are bad without her though so it may be worth trying out.

    • nightshade88

      Play Light of Sanction from original Ravnica and you are set to go. 1WW, enchantment, prevent all damage dealt to creatures you control by sources you control.

      Simple and elegant.

      • Nebulium

        Ah yeah that’s true, I was only thinking of ways to combo itself. Mark of asylum would do the trick too.

        • nightshade88

          Also the flip kitsune from Saviors of Kamigawa would do the trick, but that costs 2W and needs you to have 30 life for turning (more suited for EDH).

  • Phoenix UNBENCHED

    Well, wizards, you finally found a way to get me to play white.
    You printed Sephiroth.

    • lonewolf

      shouldn’t be it black as materia tho? xD

  • matt

    anyone else thing the statues in the circle look like Slivers?

    • fhijgjjunf

      it’s never slivers

  • kasigah

    I keep wondering what the ability that transforms her means, story-wise. As we saw with the Origins walkers, transform mechanics on legendary creatures / planeswalkers tend to have HUGE references to story. So what I want to know is: does this mean that it was the death of a particular human that ignited this change in Avacyn, and if so, who was the person? I hope not Thalia, because I’d like a new Thalia

    • Jazzyboy1

      Neither Chandra nor Nissa really had any references at all to their stories.
      And we’ve already seen what caused Avacyn’s change and it wasn’t the death of anyone. It was her suddenly having an epiphany after saving a kid, which was probably caused by some external source messing with her head. She just suddenly started thinking about how humans are just as much a threat to Innistrad’s peace as any other monster. After some contemplation, she came to the conclusion that she should just eliminate all of the ‘monsters’ on Innistrad, including humans.

      • kasigah

        Chandra referenced her explosion of pyromantic power when she was nearly executed, and Nissa referenced her growing bond with the land. It might have been a bit obscure, but it was certainly there.

        As for the events with Avacyn: we know she went crazy after saving the kid, but that’s all we know. We don’t know what caused the insanity, and that’s what has me thinking/speculating

        • TimTorn

          Lilliana could have been whispering words in her ear. She does hate angels.

        • Dustin Lanning

          its whatever nahari is doing to the mana of the plane that is what is causing her insanity.

  • 13randon

    Couls you put Avacyn in a mono white edh deck ?I think you can because even though her flip is red, it doesn’t have any mountain mana symbols in. What do you guys think?

    • kasigah

      You can, since the only mana symbols on her are white

      • Evan Dischinger

        903.4c The back face of a double-faced card (see rule 711) is included when determining a card’s color identity.

        Example: Civilized Scholar is the front face of a double-faced card with mana cost {2}{U}. Homicidal Brute is the back face of that double-faced card and has a red color indicator. The card’s color identity is blue and red.

        • kasigah

          Color identity, yes, but commander identity is determined solely by mana symbols. Two separate considerations.

          • hotu

            kasig thats is false. commander and colour identity are the same thing. a commanders colour identity is determined the exact same way. by your logic the 2 sides to avacyn would be considered to seperate cards and they have no literal interaction to each other until triggered as is the colour identity. but that is false since the rules take in part both sides. so the colour identity (same thing as commander identity, to which i have no idea how you think commander identity is a real thing) is red and white

          • kasigah

            Commander color identity is separate from normal card identity. For example, General Tazri is, for any purposes of calculating its card color identity, mono-white. However, when determining its commander color identity, it is WUBRG. Similar concepts apply to: Rhys the Exiled, Memnarch, and anything with devoid

          • kasigah

            Okay, NVM, I’ve been screwing up concepts. While what I’ve been saying so far about card color v. commander color identity is true (see Tazri), the color identity determined by double-face cards is accounted for by commanders.

            so, yes, I was wrong, and no Avacyn can’t be used in mono-white.
            Which means I need to go get my Garruk Relentless

    • Jazzyboy1

      You can’t because her flip has a colour indicator that shows that she is red; and as Evan showed evidence for below, the EDH rules consider both sides of a double faced card for colour identity.

  • Hedronal

    I am now thinking of obscure ways to make her transform the turn she enters the battlefield. Way 1: Using Paradox haze on yourself, casting her during your first upkeep, and then sacrificing a creature during the same step after she enters the battlefield. Edit: Way 2: Use Conspiracy to make her also be a human, and casting Moonmist.

  • Curious guy

    What about playing Boros Charm during the upkeep?

    • Tristan Kohli

      Tranformation is a special action, therefore it doesnt use the stack. You cant react on a special action, Avacyn just tranforms instantly as the upkeep phase begins (if the conditions are fulfilled).

      For whatever reasons you wanna play boros charm in the first place :D

      • Happy The Cat

        you can respond to the damage because it is a triggered ability that fires after she transforms.

      • Mr.Mayhem631

        Why wouldn’t you want to play Boros Charm? It’s a decent card.

      • Simon Adamsen

        She transforms true that he cant stop but the deal 3 dmg ability still uses the stack wich means he CAN cast an instant like boros charm and make his creatures indestructable until end of turn.. he can even cast stifle because its a triggered ability and counter it

        • Janus

          Du er nu en temperamentsfuld herre. Måske du skal starte med at læse, hvad der rent faktisk står i folks beskeder, inden du går amok og kalder dem røvhuller. Alternativt antager jeg, at du har noget svært ved at begå dig blandt andre tihi xD

          • Simon Adamsen

            egentlig ikke men gider ikke når idioter som dig sætter q’s ved alt… og den sidste kommentar du skrev viser jo bare jeg havde ret

          • Simon Adamsen

            helt ærligt når en som dig bruger tid på at tracke mig ned når jeg har blockeret dig for at smide en insult viser det bare at min asumption var rigtig

  • Juuchi

    I’m using her in a UW humans build in standard.

  • Kay

    How much is this card worth monetarily?

    • Juuchi

      It’s currently around $47 because it’s the best creature in standard. When it rotates in a year and a half it should drop to about $5.

  • Zombie

    But if that’s the angle you’re going for, and if you’re comparing to Anger…

    Why not just play Anger of the Gods?

    And G/W/X deck already have access to better “make my creatures not die” spells. White/X decks already have better wrath effects as well.

    Also, if you’re building your deck around stuff not dying to a 3 damage wrath, the chances of the deck actually being fast enough to play Avacyn into a relevant boardstate before dying to any deck that’s even remotely aggressive in slim to none.

    Also, she’s Legendary. So more than 1 in your hand = a dead card, unless you feel like killing your own Avacyn to flip the new one.

    Which, again, sounds cool. But it’s gimmicky and inefficient.

    I get it, she’s a cool new legendary that hybridizes two strategies. The problem with doing that is that she does both things worse or slower than cards that already do those jobs, and all you get in return is a body.

    A deck you build around her either tanks advantage of the fact that it dodges her flip-wrath and is too slow to maximize the relevance of her ETB effect, or you maximize her ETB effect potential with a grow-wide deck of small/medium creatures and then the deck wrecks itself with her flip.

    If she flipped as soon as your own creature died instead of the next upkeep she would be as good as you’re hyping her to be.

    But the simple fact of the matter is that she’s slow and any deck that builds around her will also be slow.

  • Deadly Berry

    They ruined her, by giving her flavor and a role playing point of view. She could be so different and keep the fans happy at the same time. My guess is they will make up for it with the other legendary angels of the same plane. Crossing fingers for another amazing Sigarda or Gisela.