• Zombie

    Hopefully it’s a new Gideon, but I would totally be okay with a reprint of Gideon Jura.

    Let’s just avoid another disaster like Gideon, Champion of Justice, shall we Wizards?

    • Antares

      I doubt we’d get a reprint of Jura. As long as Gideon is more like Jura or Battle-forged than Champion of Justice, I’d be ok with him. Hopefully they’ll make him good, given that he is the new face of White Planeswalkers.

      • Zombie

        He’s not really the face of White Planeswalkers overall.

        That’s still Ajani by a landslide.

        • jochen

          They weren’t even planning on printing him at first. He was just an important character in Chandra’s story but he was so popular they ended up printing him anyway.

          • Jordan

            And yet, she’s nowhere to be found so far. But we can keep giving green and white more good mythics. I mean, they seem to be short of them…

            /sarcasm

        • Bregisdog

          I believe I heard someone mention that the 5 walkers in Origins are going to be the 5 main planeswalkers for the near future of magic, so while I will agree that Ajani is more impactful and should be the face of white, I do believe that they’re trying to make Gideon the new white planeswalker.

        • OrphanSlayer

          That’s not what Mark Rosewater said…..

          • Zombie

            Even if they continue to promote Gideon, Ajani will always be the primary walker for White, regardless of what MaRo said about the near future and the current 5 in origins being their focus for now.

            Ajani was the first White Planeswalker, he’s among the walkers with the most incarnations, and he’s played a bigger part in the game than Gideon likely ever will.

            The original 5 will always be the original 5.

        • Happy The Cat

          just pointing out that ajani has been red and green and can will probably get blue or black at some point nothing else
          you seem to have your hands full with people who think the 2nd least effective pw is is better than game changer jura who saw play against JMS and only use the fact that he cost more as a reason for him to be better even though his price is that high from collectors trying to get a playset of gatecrash

          • Zombie

            Ajani had red and green because he’s from Naya.

    • Kameenook

      What’s wrong with CoJ? It might not be inherently competitively playable, but it’s still as sweet as any other walker.

      • Zombie

        It’s a cool card, don’t get me wrong. All Planeswalkers are cool.

        CoJ is just, well, bad. It’s not just unplayable in Constructed, it’s barely even playable in EDH and casual.

        How CoJ ‘protects himself’ is the most backwards ability of any Planeswalker.

        He doesn’t actually protect himself. If your opponent has enough creatures on board to make CoJ’s +1 ability actually relevant in any way, they have enough creatures to ignore CoJ and kill you.

        That’s the problem with CoJ. Sure, he can pump himself up, but that’s really it. And if he’s pumping himself up by a large amount, you’re probably going to lose.

        • Kychow17

          Still more fun to play than Gideon Jura

          • Zombie

            How is he more fun to play?

            You just tick him up and build counters until you turn him sideways.

            At least Gideon Jura has multiple tactics you can perform with him.

            He can protect you, he can smash face as a 6/6, he can destroy creatures after he taunts them with his +2, he skews combat math and your opponent’s game plan, and those are just the basics of what his abilities do.

            Gideon Jura is fantastic, in both design and gameplay.

            Gideon, Champion of Justice just durdles around until you turn him sideways or blow up the battlefield. How is that even remotely interesting?

          • CHAMP

            I think that you missing the point of the Champion. Its real simple and it seems to me your the only one that doesn’t get it. He is hard to kill because his counters grow very fast. so he protects you because the opponent has to attack him.

            Have you ever faced him or used him before? it seems like you have not.

            I can’t believe you brought the Mind Sculptor into this discussion.

          • Zombie

            He’s not hard to kill at all.

            If you’re getting a bunch of tokens from +1’ing him to make his Loyalty huge, that means your opponent has an ENORMOUS amount of creatures on board and you’re going to die next turn because you spent 2WW to do literally nothing.

          • CHAMP

            Yeah if the Champ is the only card on you battlefield then of course he will die same with Jura or any walker. white builds armies, your army can be big but are you going to attack with everyone? if so ill block trade a couple creatures lose some whatever. next turn i play more cheap white creatures and do the same. Then oh no all permanents are gone and the champs finishes you off. You got to know white usually plays a bunch of weenies.

            Besides that every turn your opponent attacks Gideon hes not attacking you. I usually use him as bait, I stick him out there and keep building him up and you keep attacking him. This last on average of 3 turns unless the opponent has a bunch of 1/1’s then it last for 4 to5 turns.

          • Douglas Bell

            you get more mileage out of a strategy with Gideon Jura where you get to make decisions or Day of Judgement wiping the board than you do out of CoJ. CoJ lets the other player dictate what he is doing to you, but Jura controls the other opponents actions and interactions. not saying CoJ is inherently bad but Jura does everything he does but better. His impact is immediate where as CoJ needs you to protect him for a few turns to become relevant.

          • XC

            I’ve faced CoJ, and he’s literally only ever made an impact in multiplayer games in my one friend’s deck. 1v1 he ran into the problem Zombie points out every freakin’ time.

        • Kameenook

          I never really expect my planeswalkers to protect themselves, I leave that job for me and my legion. I did never really consider that as soon as his ability is super relevant, he’s probably too threatened for it to be relevant, but it just makes him all the better in a deck that can abuse that synergy (pillow fort of course).

          • Zombie

            The best Planeswalkers have ways to protect themselves.

            That’s what makes them good – It means you don’t have to expend additional resources to keep them alive.

            It’s part of the reason why Jace, the Mind Sculptor is the best Planeswalker card in the game: he’s a catch-all, a jack of all trades.

            He can protect himself while simultaneously creating tempo advantage, he filters your deck, he can control the top of your opponent’s deck, and his ultimate wins you the game.

            BUT, he wouldn’t be able to do most of that if not for that ability to protect himself.

            Gideon Jura is kind of the reverse of that, where he protects you, and that’s his job. His Loyalty is largely irrelevant because he’s always a 6/6 when he becomes a creature. However, his -2 can protect him when you use it to execute a creature that he taunted the following turn.

            And that’s one of the biggest downsides to Gideon, Champion of Justice. His Power and Toughness are not static or guaranteed. If you use Gideon’s ability to turn him into a creature, and he takes damage while the ability is on the stack, he ends up as a smaller creature.

            CoJ can’t protect you, he can’t protect himself, his one job is to just sit there and build up Loyalty counters, and that makes him bad.

        • GCOJ

          you have to deal with the Champ or he will kill everything and beat you to death. so as you use the +1 to get his counters up there, the opponent has to attack him instead of you. which is great for me, you keep attacking gideon and ill keep attacking you. If you don’t attack Gideon and your attack fails to kill me. BOOM everything is gone and Gideon beats you to death. That’s the simple method. Gideon Jura usual dies to the first attack. so you get one turn to enjoy him.

          • Zombie

            You really don’t.

            Either CoJ isn’t building up many counters and he’s worse than Gideon Jura, or he’s gaining a ton of loyalty counters and you die immediately because your opponent completely ignores Gideon and swings in with the massive swathe of creatures that Gideon fed himself with.

            Which is why he’s only good in Stasis and Fog control decks. If CoJ is building up a large amount of counters, that means your opponent has a lot of creatures. And chances are those creatures are going to kill you.

          • Kychow17

            He doesn’t need a ton of creatures to grow big fast… and chances are you aren’t messing around and not being able to protect him while he’s gaining. I’ve used him in plenty of decks other than stasis or fog control decks and he works amazingly well.

          • GCOJ

            Are you new to magic or just trolling? You do realize that a deck has 60 cards in it, right? A white weenie deck with GCOJ try that. Any control deck too not just fog. Gideon leads armies are you sure you would want Jura rather than the Champ leading yours.

          • Zombie

            Jura stops my opponent from attacking me and can kill creatures, AND can attack as a 6/6.

            I’ll take that over a time bomb that explodes after 10 turns and I’m already dead any day of the year.

          • Douglas Bell

            in the situations where CoJ is good Jura is better. if they have good board presence he can fog or kill their best creature which is miles better than turn 1 get counters turn 2 if i have creatures or a fog and didn’t just top deck CoJ i have a chance to win otherwise i just lose.

    • Jazzyboy1

      I prefer Champion of Justice to Gideon Jura. I wouldn’t even consider playing Gideon Jura. He’s powerful but he’s not powerful enough to be worth playing in a synergy-heavy deck(which most decks in Modern are, and a lot in Standard too). Champion of Justice on the other hand is a bomb and is worth both a slot in your deck and worth being hit by your opponent’s removal spells.

      I really like the new Gideon, Battle-forged though. Easy to transform Kytheon into Battle-forged and making something indestructible is really powerful, especially when Guardian of the Gateless and Thoughtweft Trio exist.

      • Zombie

        It’s funny because Gideon, Champion of Justice is one of the worst Planeswalkers ever printed and has seen almost no Constructed play whatsoever.

        Gideon Jura is a staple Planeswalker in Modern Control decks, saw a ton of Standard play in its day, and is much more valuable than Champion of Justice.

        • Jazzyboy1

          Well, I guess it’s just my opinion then but I personally don’t like Gideon Jura.

          • Zombie

            You’re probably the only one, then.

            Gideon Jura is a massively popular and heavily played card.

            He’s been a Modern staple for a long time, and he won’t stop being one any time soon unless the new Gideon from BFZ is strictly better.

          • Sam Chi

            $5.39 doesn’t really say “Modern staple”.

          • Douglas Bell

            ROE was very heavily drafted. Drafts at the time were usually three parts of a set so it should have been drafted as zendikar, WW, ROE but when they released ROE (which is what Gideon Jura was printed in) they just did three ROE packs. I am also pretty sure the next core set was released late so it was drafted for a longer amount of time which increased supply dramatically. Additionally Gideon Jura was the finisher of choice for planeswalker control UWr control and UW which was the most popular deck choice at the time which caused people to buy more packs trying to open him and Modern and EDH weren’t a thing back then so more people played standard. Additionally there was a huge surge in player base at around Alara that i don’t think they have seen since. anecdotally at an FNM for ROE where i play there were always 32+ people, nowadays we get 16ish on a good night.

          • GCOJ

            Champion of Justice gets my vote. A complete bomb!!! check your prices again the champion is worth more.

          • Zombie

            He’s worth more because EDH is a thing and Gideon, Champion of Justice was printed less. CoJ is just simply harder to come by, that does not mean he’s good. There are cards from Alpha and Beta that are literally so unplayable that their only value comes from their availability, yet they’re still worth 50 to 100 dollars because of that one factor.

            Never underestimate what stupid people will pay for rare pieces of cardboard.

            He’s played in pretty much every Stasis/Fog style deck in EDH, which is a surprising amount of players, because that’s the only deck he’s playable in.

            CoJ has at most seen absolutely minimal Standard play, while Gideon Jura has seen extensive Standard play when it was legal and still sees frequent Modern play at the competitive level.

            I get that people like CoJ, I really do. But he’s one of the worst Planeswalker cards in the game. That’s just being objective.

          • GCOJ

            Your the one that said jura was more valuable. Unless you mean in a deck, but that would just be ridiculous if you meant that.

          • 1) Jura is worth more (as of the posting of this comment).
            2) Value in a deck is what Zombie is all about so how is him possibly meaning that ridiculous?
            3) Jura is a much better card because he is more useful in more match-ups than Champion of Justice.

          • Erebus

            CoJ is worth exactly three dollars here, so he hasnt catched up in some ridiculous commander popularity that would raise his prize to the clouds.
            I have seen him in one deck and it wasnt in EDH. A control deck used him as an finisher, but also utilized Jura. All Champion did was gather counters, get hit to bring his loyalty down, build a little more, get hit, rinse and repeat. Jura is threatening because he can destroy creatures with little loyalty and reliably transforms into an 6/6.

            He has his place, but only in one deck type and that deck also wants to run Jura. With Tibalt, CoJ is one of the more narrow planeswalkers in the game.

          • Zombie

            CoJ can do some work in multiplayer EDH where it’s harder to actually focus one player down.

            But I haven’t seen CoJ do any work outside of EDH at all. I know some people that have tried to play him in Constructed and every deck they put him in lost because they were basically playing with 58-56 cards instead of 60 thanks to CoJ being almost completely useless.

          • OrphanSlayer

            “massively popular” “heavily played”

            It sees fringe play in UW control decks. That’s it.

          • Zombie

            Sees play in nearly every Control deck in Modern*

            And considering Control has always been a popular deck in non-rotating formats, that’s still quite a big chunk of Modern.

            Sure, it’s not as prominent as Junk or Burn, but to say there isn’t a massive Control playerbase in Modern is simply ignoring fact.

            It’s also ignoring fact to say that CoJ is better than Gideon Jura. You might like the card better, that’s fine. But CoJ is literally garbage that’s played in EDH, and EDH players will pay out the ass for cards they like.

            Trust me, I know. I do the same thing with foils I want.

          • Kameenook

            Jura doesn’t see that much play, largely due to UWr control falling out of the spotlight. Also Grixis control has become quite popular, but besides the point, I think even if it’s on color, Gideon Jura just isn’t exciting for control players, even though he is a beating.

          • Zombie

            Grixis Control hasn’t really become popular. Grixis Control has always been a deck in Modern that’s never really seen competitive play but is a popular casual or FNM deck.

            Grixis Twin and Grixis Delver, however, are starting to make waves in Modern, especially Grixis Twin who just two days ago won the Chicago 5k Premier IQ.

          • Kameenook

            I have seen so much Grixis control recently actually, I haven’t been playing myself, but rather watching streams of magic online, where it seems the combination of snapcaster mage and kolaghan’s command make it fairly popular.

          • Zombie

            That’s kinda what I meant. Grixis Control has always been around.

            It’s a fairly popular deck that’s never really reached the upper echelon on Modern.

            However, Grixis Delver and Grixis Twin are starting to climb the ranks and have won some tournaments around the globe, making them internationally viable Tier 1.5 decks at the very least, which is impressive.

          • Jordan

            Funny… haven’t seen him in a year or so. Maybe longer.

          • ashton

            yeah jura sucks

        • ashton

          champion is better for me because in a deck with borderline no creatures a planeswalker with those abilities works well

          • Zombie

            Pretty much the only deck CoJ is good in is a Stasis/Fog control deck.

          • Kychow17

            lol ok

        • OrphanSlayer

          “staple” You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

  • Marzen64

    Ah, Gideon Planeswalker, my favorite son of Urza Planeswalker.

    • OrphanSlayer

      Uhhhh…..

    • Jaime Hubster

      This theory is supported by what???

      • Dr. Burn Crow

        Pretty sure he’s joking

        • Jaime Hubster

          Bummer, I liked the theory…

    • Heinz Erhard

      look at the art of kytheon…. whos in the back? whos spear did he get to kill erebos titan? whats the only theme from greek mythology they didnt deliver on yet in theros block? is he sometimes indestructible? yep hes the half god son of

      Heliod

  • Gideon WR Nissa GB calling it now

    • Arandomplaneswalker

      Garruk already did that, so I highly doubt Nissa will too.

      • TacoBellHero

        In origins, the only elves you see what color are they affiliated with and what does the background appears like to you?
        Its been fully hinted. half of the elves appear in zendikar are black affiliated
        each main planeswalker has a secondary support enemy color hinted 2 spaces over counter clockwise.
        For Thopters what other color has it, other than majority red??? blue this means Chandra originally hinted red-blue, she did came from an island where pyromancy is illegal after all.

        • aejdljenklfnrlujf

          Nissa had already been stated to have allied herself with the black/green elves of Lorwyn, Origins is not hinting at it. Her ideology is mono-green and is likely going to stay there. The planeswalkers in origins were picked because of their monocolored-ness. Nissa planeswalked to Lorwyn and worked with the black/green aligned elves because they were the first beings she encountered and happened to be the same species. In fact, she left them because of the differences in their ideals. Similarly, Chandra is from the city-state Ghirapur on the plane of Kaladesh. Ghirapur is blue/red, Chandra most definitely isn’t. Don’t confuse the alignment of a character’s story elements with that character’s alignment.

          • James Robinson

            If you actually read some of he Lore she dabbled in black magic after the Lorwen encounter

        • Heinz Erhard

          actually the elves are green black because its not the elves from zendikar (were she is from) but the wierd alternate reality ones from shadowmore

        • Ghirapur was not an island.

  • Happy The Cat

    is it just me or does gideon look SUPER young?

  • BaconCat

    Do we have confirmation that this art is official? Sorry but it looks really below Wizards standards…

    • Yes, this was shown at the SDCC Panel.