• TheBigM

    Tolarian Vault?

  • David Fitzsimmons

    I definitely see this getting banned from EDH

    • Junior Crusher

      My Nin and Thrax decks can get this transformed really fast. Good thing my Oona deck is just infinite mana combos because the color combination keeps this card out of her hands.

    • Shagoth

      OMG, no it won’t. Don’t people realize that a tough to flip, four mana, Tolarian Academy, is way weaker than a land you can just plop? Sorry about being abrasive about my opinion, but I learned from Razaketh.

      • Happy The Cat

        Razaketh is an 8 mana fetch spell, if you want a fair comparison we just got Itlimoc, which is a $24 version of a card that isn’t banned in commander. the only downside is you’re forced to play red in an Artifact deck, which most Artifact friendly commanders aren’t a fan of.(excluding Breya and maybe Reaper King)

        • Shagoth

          Itlimoc is still not very powerful/broken. My mono g elf commander is obsessed with mana ramp, but I don’t even want itlimoc because it’s so unreliable and expensive.

          • Happy The Cat

            that’s probably due to your deck style, I’m guessing you run a more traditional Elf tribal deck where the most of your creatures already produce and fetch plenty of mana by themselves to fuel your most expensive mana dumps out of the gate like your Warcaller and taking the time to play non elf cards or cards to get more elves is simply a waste. That’s just how Elf tribal works.
            Personally, I have two decks that prioritize Itlimoc, one is old Omnath, the other is Ulasht, unlike Elves where everything is based around simply getting more and more elves to go crazy, the decks consist of massive mana sinks, then turning those mana sinks into more mana and repeating the process. I’ve had Itlimoc produce more than 500 mana in one use before, simply by being able to untap a land a few times and being able to use a handful of cards that produce a lot of tokens

          • Shagoth

            I suppose. I just strongly disagree with this card being busted, a lot of stuff in this game can do crazy stuff, it sounded like you had to build around it though, instead of just drawing 39 cards on turn three with Necropotence. (Why isn’t THAT banned?)

          • Happy The Cat

            well, that’s just due to how hard it can be punished, Pithing Needle, Wheel effects, Shock even. some guy went off and exiled a massive amount of cards one game, at the end of his turn I responded with Glorious End to exile the triggers, then lost at the end of my turn.But was the hero of the table for that game.

          • Zombie

            Necro isn’t banned because Necro-ing against 3 other people is usually just suicide.

            Too much risk in using Necro as an engine with 3 other people now immediately gunning for you.

            It’s why Necro doesn’t see tons of play in multiplayer. Necro’s obviously a busted card, but it also paints a giant “Kill Me” sign on your forehead the second you play it.

        • Zombie

          Razaketh isn’t an ‘8 mana fetch spell’.

          I’ve been doing busted things with him in EDH for a while now.

          Razaketh’s potential to cast upwards of 5-6-7 Demonic Tutors in a single turn can be game-breaking, espeically if you have massive mana-bombs like Cabal Coffers, Nykthos, Crypt of Agadeem, etc.

          Also, Daretti would like to have a serious word with you about disparaging Red in Artifact EDH decks.

          A tuned mono red Daretti list can absolutely curb-stomp the vast majority of the EDH metagame.

          When you can exile everyone else’s permanents and dump 15+ artifacts back onto the board with Scrap Mastery by turns 5-7, you become public enemy #1 at the local EDH league.

          For what it’s worth, my Daretti deck in my EDH league over 6 weeks, 3 games a week, went 17-1.

          … My foiled out Breya deck worth nearly 10 grand only went 15-3, and I still consider Breya the strongest overall Commander in the entire format.

          • Happy The Cat

            Razaketh is a end game mana sink that, after costing a bunch of mana, ends games with whatever you need from your deck. Seeing as this is a mana producer, Itlimoc, which uses generally the same mechanics and everything, is a much better comparison. both cost a decent amount of mana, both require their deck to want a certain board state for them to activate, and both of them are functional reprints of some of the most expensive lands in magic.
            Also, quick note, Daretti also cant play this. the absolute WORST part of this card is that it’s both red AND blue. it forces out of Esper and mono red, which are the main high tier Artifact deck colors. If it had been either color(assuming the red version would’ve made red or colorless mana for commander legalness) this could have been a $40+ foil easy after the set rotates. But as is the only artifact centered commander that could naturally run this is Breya, who you’ve already pointed out as kinda op.

          • Zombie

            Razaketh isn’t a mana sink, he’s a combo piece.

            You can easily play him in early turns with the massive ramp black has, and then you can tutor out a combo win.

            Razaketh isn’t some 8 mana dumb fatty. He’s literally just 4BBBB: ‘Win the game’, if you build your deck properly.

          • Happy The Cat

            so 8 mana isn’t a sink? what terrifying version of edh do you play? and in what way does freely assembling your combo pieces not make him end the game? fetching a game ending combo is a game winning condition.

            Also, I’m not saying Raza is bad. I’m saying that there is no fair way to compare it with this card. Both do entirely different things.

          • Zombie

            ” what terrifying version of edh do you play? ”

            One where people use good cards that cost more than $1.

          • Happy The Cat

            Zombie, you’re being dumb, and it’s annoying. lets go over everything again.
            First Mr. Shagoth states that he doesn’t think this will get banned and “learned from Razaketh”
            I then respond saying Razaketh is and 8 mana fetch spell and It is more fair to compare this to Itlimoc, which is very similar in most parts, since this is to Tolarian Academy as Itlimoc is to Gaea’s Cradle, and that the biggest down side for this blue producing land is that it also costs red, which not many Artifact commanders like(hence me mentioning Breya and Reaper King)
            You then respond saying Razaketh isn’t a fetch spell, and then state how you use him to fetch 5~7 cards at once to win the game, then you say that Daretti(who can’t run blue producing lands like Tolarian Academy or this) is a good artifact commander for some reason, and list your League rankings with him. now as a resident Pro good cheap burn advocate this confuses me, since I’m clearly aware of what red is capable of.
            I respond again, stating that Raza is a mana sink that, after costing a good deal of mana wins the game by fetching whatever you want and that, again, is in no way a fair comparison to this. Since this requires a deck to function in a certain way, and play specific colors that together aren’t regularly associated with functioning that way(at least together)
            again, you respond, this time say Razaketh is not a sink, but a combo piece, and that his combo is fetching a combo for you. then you say “he’s literally just 4bbbb: ‘win the game’ ” (quick side note that should’ve been “4bbbb: win the game” since you implied this was his effect and all.)
            I respond, confused, and ask how you don’t consider 8 mana a sink, and how being what assembles a game winning combo makes in not a game ending mana sink but just part of a combo. I also have to ask what type of magic do you play where an 8 mana card that then fetches several cards isn’t the end game. wanting to know what, after you’ve fetched and presumably used everything you could with Razaketh, you could possibly still be casting, since he already should have ended the game with the aforementioned combo.
            you then respond, quoting my question, and saying that you are using spells that cost over $1

            now, Zombie, we’ve both known each other for a while now on this site. and yes I’m known for liking Tomorrow, who isn’t $1 non foil, but it’s not like my decks are cheap or that being cheap directly makes a deck strictly bad, so I’m a bit offended by you suggesting that.
            so, one last question. when you use Razaketh, do you care that he is an 8/8 flying trampler or that he says “Pay 2 life, Sacrifice another creature: Search your library for a card and put that card into your hand. Then shuffle your library.”. because if you care only about the latter, he’s a fetch spell.

            Actually I lied, sorry, actual last question. Do you really think the fetch spell is a part of the combination? because it isn’t. With Tomorrow and Possessed Portal it is, since Tomorrow’s replacement effect is what fetches Portal and then exploits it, but you don’t need Raza for most combos he fetches, if you had drawn into those cards themselves you wouldn’t need him. he’s 8 mana: creatures you control become fetch spells, unless you want some Lab Maniac combo where you’ve built an engine that makes sacrificing creatures also create more creatures without needing mana to the point where you can fetch your entire deck(and requires you to be able to pay 2 life for every card, so you’d need a soul sister or a TON of hp) meanwhile you could just get Sanguine Bond and Exquisite Blood for 4hp and two dudes and win the game.

          • Zombie

            You went into a lot of detail for just being simply wrong about the usage of Razaketh in a short comment.

          • Happy The Cat

            Please elaborate, because it seems that you are just being salty after being proven completly wrong.

          • Zombie

            Elaborate on what, exactly?

            Razaketh is played as an 8 mana one-time-cast win condition, because he can tutor out literally every single card you need to immediately win the game.

            It’s like comboing off with Dark Petition but on crack.

            My entire point was refuting the “Razaketh is an 8 mana fetch spell” nonsense.

            Razaketh isn’t just some 8 mana dork tutor, he’s literally his deck’s instant & guaranteed win condition.

            If Razaketh hits the board, you should win the game on the spot.

          • Happy The Cat

            I want you to elaborate on how I’M wrong, because he IS a FETCH SPELL, and he’s a WIN CONDITION. YOU were the one saying that he’s a COMBO PIECE & EARLY GAME SPELL!!! then YOU DEFENDED YOUR argument by saying YOU USE HIM TO FETCH SPELLS AND WIN THE GAME!

            Just because he can be simplified down to 8 mana fetch spell doesn’t mean that’s a bad thing, but that is ALL he is. nobody cares about anything else he can do. He is 8 Mana (plus x creatures and 2x life, plus the mana cost of everything you fetch) sink that should always end the game!
            the only text on him that matters is his activated ability! fetching several spells repeatedly or at once IS a game winning condition! YOU were saying that he doesn’t end the game.

            So, elaborate, in what possible realm is Razaketh not a fetch spell that should end the game? Since you are just SO adamant that I’M the one in the wrong here, I want YOU to TELL ME what else he can do, besides fetch spells, that makes him into a combo piece and early game spell.

          • Zombie

            Because that over-simplification wasn’t really necessary. And then you went on a tirade from a semantics issue.

            ‘8 mana fetch spell’ implies some sort of strictly-worse Vampiric Tutor fatty. Which is nowhere near the scale of Razaketh.

            All I was trying to point out was to use a more accurate descriptor in the original comment, which is why I’m so confused regarding your long-winded rambling responses following.

    • Kahai

      Front side dies to 1 mana removal, not getting banned.

      • Shagoth

        so does rofellos…
        I don’t think this will get banned, or even be powerful, since four mana+a lucky turn is way more than a land, but IMO, I just get bothered whenever I see the “dies to removal” argument.

        • Kahai

          hehe, it was a joke <3

          I get bothered when people assume cool cards will all get banned lol

  • Oscar

    Zombie! Is this a worthy inclusion for your Breya deck? Looks kind of EXACTLY what she wants…

  • Happy The Cat

    oh, hey there Tolarian Academy, was 50/50 on this showing up after the new Gaea’s Cradle.
    for four, this is kind of a busted card, but having red in the mana cost knocks it out of several decks that would have wanted it. I would expect some ur++ Tronfinity deck to show up in modern some time soon though.

    • Kevin Johnstone

      Because lotus petals and various mox cannot produce a single, red, mana…..

      • Happy The Cat

        Yep, all those modern legal Lotus Petals and Moxen. You got me.

      • Nikolai Anzuoni

        Also commander color restrictions

  • Kevin Johnstone

    Vault of Tolarian Academy LOL

    • Jon Snow

      How about vault of catalan?

  • Shagoth

    Really good card, but why do people act like 4 and 3 mana enchantments that you have to flip the next turn are busted?

    • Happy The Cat

      normally they aren’t, but when flipping it turns it into a effectively better version of a land good enough to be banned from EDH, Legacy, and got restricted in Vintage, that’s when people start calling a card busted.

      • Shagoth

        Demonic tutor=Restricted in vintage
        Diabolic tutor=Legal in every format, no one plays it in any format. And that’s a two mana difference. THIS is a four mana difference, and you have to jump through several hoops in order to get it to turn into the one mana land.
        Ancestral Vision=As restricted and banned as it can get
        Card that costs four more=Played in one or two tier 12 modern decks.

        I’m sorry, but why do people ignore the mana/viable turn to play cost? If Tolarian Academy costed as much as Emrakul, people wouldn’t call it busted. A one mana difference can make a broken card lame, can’t imagine what four mana and a crazy flip condition does to it.

        • Happy The Cat

          but Demonic Tutor isn’t the end game plan for any deck, however Tolarian Academy can be. yes, four mana cost does nerf it(lets be real though, any deck actually wanting to run this Catlacan Academy for value will be able to make enough artifacts to flip this easy) Storm the Vault still has that same massive mana production leap.
          like I said below, the worst part of this card is that it’s red, forcing you to use commanders that aren’t as artifact friendly(again, Breya and maybe Reaper King being notable exceptions) but the point still stands that I can jump from four to ten mana in one turn while playing a theme that should have rocks to get this out before the shatterstorms give me a bad day. Unlike green with Gaea’s Cradle/Itlimoc, blue doesn’t do nearly as well in the big ramp department, making this way more valuable for the color overall.

          • Shagoth

            Thran Dynamo literally makes it go from 4 to 7 mana. Still don’t see the hype, 7 and 10 are still game swinging spells.

          • Cthulhooo

            Sure, it’s annoying to flip this one but with enough artifacts in deck you can do it easily enough. Original Tolarian academy worked like this anyway. You play Tolarian Academy along with a bunch of zero mana artifacts on
            turn 1 (some of which are fast mana artifacts like Lotus Petal or Mox) and then proceed to generate a ton of mana with Tolarian Academy, cast spells that untap Tolarian Academy and draw you cards, play some more
            artifacts and tap it for even more mana, cast some more spells to draw cards and untap it again and ad nauseam.

            It’s not as busted as academy but it’s abusable in correct format.

          • Shagoth

            “And ad nauseum”
            tim teh brew

          • Happy The Cat

            yeah, but with 10 mana, you can still leave up mana to cast more spells after your seven mana spell like counterspells or removal or use abilities for any of the artifacts you control. 10 > 7. That’s just simple math. you’re equivalently saying Black Lotus and moxen shouldn’t be banned in edh because you can get basics to add mana.

          • Shagoth

            Here’s some more basic math:
            5>1
            I could say that you’re basically saying that Balloth Null is almost as powerful as Tarmogoyf in modern.
            In blue, with that many artifacts, you can get way more mana by turn 4 let alone five.
            Metalworker, Sol Ring, Thran Dynamo, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Voltaic Key, Basalt Monolith, ect.

          • Kameenook

            I mean it fits in Esper and Grixis just fine, it won’t let you use a straight UR commander but other than the aforementioned ones esper especially has a lot of artifact synergies.

          • Happy The Cat

            but Esper can’t run it and that’s probably the worst thing about the card. If it had been ub instead of ur it would probably have like $5 more on the final foil price tag simply cause there are so many great Esper and Dimir commanders that work with Artifacts, even commanders like Breya and Mishra would still play it if it was ub. Nin Darksteel is the only build that would truly lose out if this had been black.

          • Kameenook

            Oh derp. you’re right esper can’t

        • Bob

          Ohh man im just gonna cascade into ancestral vision to draw D’tutor to put this card i to my hand then concede!!

          • Shagoth

            wut?

          • Bostorket

            NOT IF I CONCEDE FIRST!

  • Darkray Accel

    I was gonna say banned but after looking at storm the vault It probably wont. Academy is just infinity better.

    • Oscar

      Is this comparison even fair? At least you can actually play with this version. Tolarian Academy is banned in both Legacy and Commander and restricted in Vintage.

    • Bostorket

      Well, duh. There’s a reason the Ixalan flip-lands are Standard-printable in contrast to their predecessors – they’re counterable, easier to destroy, and have conditional, phase-specific transformations. You can’t (in theory) start breaking the game over your knee on turn 0 with them. Probably.

  • Bostorket

    I am both elated and trepidacious. And I am not certain which is more.