• Antares

    Creature versions of the planeswalkers, maybe?

    • Gareth Martin

      No way! I thought they would be artifacts or lands! Never knew planeswalkers would be creature types since it hasn’t been done before!!!!!!!

      • guest

        I think he just means that the planswalkers will be creature. They would be like any other legendary creature. Think of it like venser, Nicol Bolas and Karn. They both have planeswlaker and creature cards.

        • Gareth Martin

          sarcasm dude… of course they are legendary creatures if they don’t have their spark. I even referred to pre-spark walkers being represented as creature cards in my comment. How else will they make them if they are to be in the set? sorceries? Lands?

          • Dr. Burn Crow

            Somebody took their a-hole pills this morning.

          • Gareth Martin

            Oh, I don’t need pills for that. They both have just the most super original ideas… I’m super jealous of them :'( Who knew walkers would be creatures before having their spark ignite?! I wouldn’t doubt it if Antares was working on the set with Rosewater himself!!!!1

          • Dr. Burn Crow

            Oh wow. You’re the worst.

          • Gareth Martin

            Literally.

          • Dr. Burn Crow

            Glad we agree.

  • zoocalu

    Pre and post selling her soul lili?

  • danthewalrusman

    They said we would see plansewalkers before they got their spark.

    • Bamasbackontop

      they might be suggesting double sided planeswalkers :3 ?

      • danthewalrusman

        It would probobly be legands

  • danthewalrusman

    I think that Liliana will either be a white or a black legend.

    • Antares

      I’m hoping for a W/B legend. We’re already getting TWO NEW MECHANICS in this “Core Set” (I think at this point we can say it’s not a core set like any we’ve seen before). She’s the only one that actually FITS as a multicolor legend out of the 5. She could be W (to represent her as a healer) and B (to show that she’s not as pure/nice/caring as she pretends).

      Chandra is just going to be Miss Burny (I’m thinking something along the lines of Jaya Ballard), Nissa will be an Elf Lord, Gideon will be either a big beater soldier or some soldier lord, Jace will have a looting or bouncing effect.

      These are purely predictions.

      • Antares

        Most likely Liliana will be a Black legend with either an ability to regenerate creatures or bring them back (either to hand or to battlefield).

  • Legendary_Thopter

    Storm crow reprint comfirmed. Liliana gets her power from Storm crow, look at the top picture.

    • All ‘walkers get their power from Storm Crow.

      • Dr. Burn Crow

        You are all welcome

  • danthewalrusman

    What plain do you think it is in the top picture? Maybe innistrad, It could be lorwyn but that is unlikely becuase lili is a human and there are no humans on lorwyn. It could be shandalar also. those are my thoughts. This looks likethe best core set that there will ever be. As well as the last one.

    • Antares

      I’m thinking it’s a new one. Liliana met Griselbrand AFTER her spark ignited, after all. It can’t be Lorwyn because of the “no humans” thing. Liliana also isn’t from Shandalar (evidenced by one of the Chain Veil stories on Uncharted Realms). It’ll be cool to see new planes (that we could visit in the future).

      • davee

        I’ll bet the new plane is one that doesn’t exist anymore or is now so destroyed because of Lili it’s not worth visiting

    • Guess?

      I saw a link a few hours ago that the spoiled pic is Liliana before/after. I’m Curious just how that adds up but I’m usually so far out of the know that I just go with it

  • danthewalrusman

    Here are the walkers for this set: savanna lions, storm crow, drudge skeletons, goblin piker, and grizzly bears. Thank you for taking the time to read this comment

    • John belunski

      What? That makes literally no sense.
      Why would they reuse the old walkers?

  • Lord_of_Riots

    Oh wow! I can’t wait to see what Nicol Bolas would be like as a creature!
    Wait…

  • Nathan James Goodner

    We wants it! We needs it! We must have the precious! I care not what the top lili does, I will have it and it will be mine.

  • Mike Thomas

    Is this the “Core Set”? aka the Summer Set?

    • pain42

      yes, releases in july

    • Zombie

      It’s also the last Core Set that Wizards will ever produce for Magic. It’s only 3-set blocks + supplemental sets for Magic here-on-out.

      • Mike Thomas

        You mean 2-set blocks?

        • Zombie

          You know, after forgetting that it’s 2 sets per block multiple times, and then going back to the actual information about it and making myself a note about how it works, you would think that one day I would get it right the first time.

          But that was not that day.

  • Tommy

    Liliana black and white. Gideon white and red. Chandra red and blue. Have blue and green . Nissa green and black. Any thoughts? It does makes sense. Maybe not have but it could work?

    • Lync

      I would think that since there are a few images of Jace, that it is possible for it to be Origins of the Lorwyn 5 (Jace, Chandra, Ajani, Garruk, Liliana). What might happen is they might show dual aligned (or even their primary colors) for each. What do you think would happen with it?

    • SeriosSkies

      Because prior to them getting their spark they used different magic? The spark only strengthened what magic they did use.

    • Oleksandr

      Except it would make more spence to have Nessa as G/R and Jace as U/B due to the hints that Jace’s back story has a hint of shadowed drama and Nessa having a fighting spirit that was shown on Zendicar. Mainly have Gidion as W/G for color balancing, let’s be honest here no one really cares much for him, not after that terrible frol in gate crash. Even Tibolt has him beat at being terrible, so he really isn’t that note worthy. However, that could change; I just hope he dose not drag down the whole color with him.

  • davee

    Double sided Lili that is a Legendary creature and a planeswalker?

    • Eduaro Parma

      it would be nice if a creature, when reach something, has it’s spark ignited and get fliped, becoming a planeswalker.

    • Melissa Juice

      Probably not. Manifest doesn’t play well with double-sided cards.

      Too unintuitive.

  • lordviral

    I feel like it’ll be an interesting mix where the prespark side is just a legendary creature that when it fufills a specific requirement it’ll flip over into their walker form, it would make for a unique experience in my opinion.

    Maybe something like: “if you control x amount of black creatures, flip this card.”

    Hopefully the early walker forms won’t end up being akin to Tibalt.

    • Melissa Juice

      I don’t think they’ll be bringing back Double-sided cards anytime soon. Especially not with Manifest in standard.

      • Matt Wasser

        You could Manifest double-sided cards if you use card sleeves.

        • Melissa Juice

          Indeed. It’s just extremely unintuitive.

          • final

            you know they had those cards in innistrad that you had to check which it is for the double sided while in deck… why not just manifest those and when turning them face up you just get the checked double sided from outside the game. you need to play those anyway if you don’t sleeve

      • Peter

        They have manifest token cards to eliminate any issues with the cards themselves. I could see them being double sided cards. Honestly, I hope they are that way. Brings me closer to Innistrad, again.

        • Melissa Juice

          I’m sure double-sided cards will be back one of these days. I just think they’ll avoid it with manifest in Standard. You never want a set of rules so unintuitive you *have* to use tokens, you know?

          I’m pretty curious to see what they’ll try out for this set.

  • Josh

    If this really is origins, I would imagine these are early planeswalkers, that were all since defeated or talked about only in old reference. I’d much rather see (now dead) unknown planeswalkers than keep regurgitating jace, chandra, garruk etc. Those main characters have already had their ‘origins’ stories told in a sense, we know them, they’re the ‘current’ age of plainswalkers.

    • We know little about anything before the ‘current’ planeswalkers sparks ignited. Not to mention Gideon and Nissa are the white and green ‘walkers respectively. Wizards ‘regurgitates’, as you put it, newer planeswalkers because they are popular with most newer players. We also just got what you would like back in the latest Commander decks.

      • Eidorian

        Chandra’s and Jace’s pre-spark story have been told already

        • They were told yes, but we don’t know their home Planes, their first parents names or much else about the specifics.

  • Melissa Juice

    Prettiest Liliana art so far, by far.

    This is the final cores set, yes?

    • Yep, this quite literally the Core Set to end all Core Sets.

      • Melissa Juice

        Cool!

  • Ryot

    I don’t care if this is the last printing of Jace I just want him to end on a high note, not face down in the gutters of ravnica.

  • Andy Dondes

    so we will have this instead of another core set? Interesting…

    • Melissa Juice

      This IS the last core set.

      • Andy Dondes

        Well it isnt called core set

        • Melissa Juice

          Indeed so. Probably, since it’s the last one, they went with a more flavorful, “epic” title.

  • Ryan Freedman

    maybe kamigawa flip cards?

    • Melissa Juice

      I don’t think the design/developement teams ended up too happy with those, which is one of the reasons they tried double-sided cards in Innistrad.
      Probably just Legendary creatures.

  • Dr. Burn Crow

    I don’t know what this is but it’s giving me chills. That Liliana art. Oh my word.

    • Melissa Juice

      Woooord.

  • beyond_malachi

    Jace’s Origin story is linked to Heroes? He used to be Sylar?

  • storm crow

    this will be a two sets this means we will see planeswalkers before and after there spark ignites. this also means there will be legendary creature for all of them as well a planeswalker card . also storm crow confirmed

    • Not GRUul? Then Die!

      Why will it be two sets?

    • Melissa Juice

      This is the last core set. One set.

      • They are grouping Dragons of Tarkir with this set for Rotation reasons,
        THIS CORE SET WILL NOT BE TWO SETS

    • Eidorian

      I think it will be right after they ignited, Chandra’s spark ignited when her entire family was burnt to death and she was about to be beheaded, and she was around her teens in that time, jace’s was when he was a kid and accidentally killed his former master in a fit of rage.

  • CnBCustoms

    So… Is it possible that we are getting the selected planeswalkers AND a legendary creature version of them? I won’t lie, having Jace as a commander would be pretty sweet. The same can be said of the rest of them.

    • Zombie

      It’s possible, but at this point it could be interpreted either way until we know more.

      • CnBCustoms

        Fingers crossed!

        • Zombie

          I’m hoping we see 2 versions of them at least, I don’t really care if they reach Planeswalker status in the set or not. I’m just digging the story potential.

          Idk, it sounds like they’ll have a pre-spark ignition card and a Planeswalker card, at least that kinda sounded implied.

          I’m fine with anything as long as they each have two versions, or at least a card each that is lore/story related along with their Planeswalker card.

          The absolutely #christmasland dream would be a new Planeswalker card for each of them (like a snapshot of each of them right as their spark ignited) and a card that was them before their spark ignited.

          So imagine like the rogue, mysterious mage Jace pre-ignition, and then a new baby jace (CMC 2 or 3).

          If they were all super cheap with 2-3 abilities that would be even better.

          • CnBCustoms

            Maybe they’ll pull something crazy and bring back the Innistrad transformation cards except the legendary creatures transform into planeswalkers?

          • Matt Wasser

            I’ve been hoping they’ll use transformation and double-sided cards to show planeswalker sparks igniting since they introduced back in Innistrad.

          • Zombie

            That would be amazing, awkward, and terrible all at once.

            I love it.

          • Al’ar

            That NOS4A2 reference is great. xD

  • Antonio Delonge Baiani

    Playing Jace as my commander?…
    hhhnngnggggggggg

    • Zombie

      Technically you could already do that. A lot of playgroups have started allowing the use of most Planeswalkers as Generals now that Commander 2014 gave us that option to have ‘Walker generals. Of course, some people already did that, but now it’s more common.

      My EDH playgroup even has its own separate ban list for EDH Walker Generals. We allow all Planeswalkers to be used as your General aside from Jace, the Mindsculptor, Karn Liberated, Sorin Markov, Garruk, Caller of Beasts, Gideon, Champion of Justice, and Chandra Ablaze. All of them can still be used normally in a deck, just not as a General.

  • Justme

    Maybe Legendary creatures that let you search your library(or outside the game) for a walker with a special type when they die (So creature jace can fetch a pw jace).

    • Melissa Juice

      Fetching walkers seems terrifyingly powerful. Too much, methinks.

    • Guest

      This would be soooooo overpowered in commander. It would just be Plainswalker decks and plainswalker hate decks in the format.

    • MJJJJ

      I think wizards will try to steer clear of “outside the game” mechanics from now on. It doesn’t seem new world order friendly, especially within a tournament setting. I know most people at my local game store would be completely confused about this rule.

  • 偽善者

    Maybe the walkers will be creatures than disruptive student (Teferi), master of arms (Gerrard)…??

  • Ultramegalord

    would be sweet if the did an origin card for ugin, and even sweeter if they made a younger card for nicol bolas (you know before he was 1 of the 5 elder dragons from legends if that makes sense) a reprint of nicol bolas (from legends) would just be hilarious as well

    • David Fitzsimmons

      technically he was always an elder dragon. They did however make a alt art of his creature card in From the Vault Dragons. Shows him looking like his modern design.

      • Ultramegalord

        i know, i was meaning before he became a beat stick.
        a level up system would work with the top end being planeswalker :)

  • Dexys

    I have the thought that it will be an off color creature, white lilliana when she was a healer, red jace when he was a student, and then not very powerful planeswalker cards of themselves the moment the spark

    • SirMannyOrtiz

      Lily was pre-mending, so she would have had god-like powers when her spark ignited.

      • danthewalrusman

        what is mending?

        • a big Cluster F^$K on Dominaria where multiple planes and timelines started converging together and ripped the Multiverse a new one, so a bunch of Planeswalkers had to give their Sparks to “Mend” the damage to the Multiverse, hence “The Mending”,
          Since then, Planeswalkers have not been nearly as powerful as they use to be,
          just like Sir Manny Ortiz mentioned, she was a planeswalker before the Mending occurred, so she could probably kill stuff with the flick of her wrist, she could travel between countless planes in the blink of an eye, and I could be wrong but I think I remember hearing that Pre-Mending planeswalkers could just up and build an entirely new plane like Karn did.

          • Ultramegalord

            yup i am aware of 3 serra’s realm , argentium (mirrodin), and phyrexia thats just off the top of my head

          • David Fitzsimmons

            pre mending walkers were all but Gods, although I am sure there is not much in the multiverse of MtG that could argue with them that they could not deem themselves gods.

            They had no set form they could take whatever form they wanted, they never ever aged, their memory was pure perfect in retaining everything they learned in their infinite lifespan, they created worlds as you mentioned, and so so SOOOOOOOO much more.

            The power Nicol Bolas has as an Elder Dragon is but a fraction of what a true walker. Even with his lifespan he fears growing old despite having probably another 5-10 milleniums to go, because he got to feel what true infinity was and loved it.

        • Matt Wasser

          Time Spiral block told the story of the mending. Rifts of time opened all over Domnaria, and some planswalkers gave up there sparks and I think even lives to close them, thouse mending the time stream. It changed he very nature of the plansewalker spark.

  • Kameenook

    Anybody want to fill me in on the story, I’ve forgotten about half of it and can’t seem to put a finger on that top picture.

    • Derek Niles

      It’s suppose to be Liliana before she sold her soul to a bunch of demons, it’s the first time she’s being shown that way so don’t worry about not reconizing her

      • Kameenook

        Thanks, I can see it now, although the picture is much too happy for my taste.

  • heckenkeks

    tooooookeeeeeeens!!! birds and zombies :D

    … and again a jayce? -.-

  • Ponies Are Sexy

    Those look an awful lot like wedge colours

    • Melissa Juice

      Those…pictures?

      • Ponies Are Sexy

        What else is there?

        • Melissa Juice

          In what way do they look like wedge colors?

          • Ponies Are Sexy

            It isn’t blindingly obvious?

          • Melissa Juice

            No. Not at all. A card’s art doesn’t inherently mean anything.

          • Samual Troy

            I agree, based on pre-release art Sarkhan looked almost Red/White for Khans, which didn’t turn out to be the case, Ajani tends to have teal/blue colors in his clothing but he has never been blue.

          • Ponies Are Sexy

            But he was part of a red/white/black clan(as indicated by the other pre-release art). So he wore their clothes.

          • Samual Troy

            Yeah, but he wasn’t RWB, he was pure red, you’re supporting my point. Art doesn’t always mean colors. You can go through non-planeswalker cards and find guys wearing a lot of blue and their on a pure white card. To be fair Dack Fayden is a good looks Red/Blue is Red/Blue and most Blue planeswalkers are pure blue art, but Elspeth, Ajani, Gideon, Tamiyo, and the newest Sarkhan all have colors in their art ignored in their actual card colors.

            I’d love Green/White/Black Liliana even just as Legendary Creature, but I was hopeful for a plot curveball Red/White Sarkhan and knew he was likely going to be pure Red. I do think the White will play a part, but the Green is just there to color balance.

            Although, as the last core set I wouldn’t put it past WotC to keep the wedges present to better bridge Dragons of Tarkir which will be weirdly alone as the leftover remains of the 3 block set system as it migrates to the new system. So I’m hopeful, but not going to jump the gun. Also, I’m ignoring the Jace image because it won’t be card art (His already revealed past would hint at red and green being believably possible though).

          • Ponies Are Sexy

            I doesn’t inherintly mean anything, but it’s usually a good indicator. A clear 3 colour theme in 2/3 preview arts is unlikely to be a coincedence.

          • Melissa Juice

            You might actually be right. Color-coding can be strong hinting, but it certainly might not be.
            I’m interested to find out.

          • Ponies Are Sexy

            And before you ask

  • SirMannyOrtiz

    Does it look to you guys that the two castles in Lily’s arts are the same?

    • Melissa Juice

      Nope.

    • Ponies Are Sexy

      Not even close. But it would be cool if they were

  • Davide

    so the white planeswalker in magic board game will be gideon?

    • Melissa Juice

      Yep.
      Green is Nissa.

  • Ryū

    Gonna be awesome. Can’t wait to see Elspeth’s life ripped apart by Phyrexia. Could be an excuse for some offhand Phyrexian cards.

    • gabriel

      hope so

      • Ryū

        It’d be interesting if they made legendary creature versions of the planeswalkers, from the time before their sparks ignited.

    • Alex

      no it’s just chandra, jace, nissa, gideon and liliana.

      • Ryū

        Haha, I’m dumb. I thought the chick in white was early Elspeth, didn’t realize it was Lili. My bad.

    • Yodasodabob

      Elspeth died already. She was murdered by Heliod on Theros at some point.

      • Ryū

        I know, but Origins is going to be backstory.

      • Antares

        This set will only cover the origins of Gideon, Liliana, chandra, Jace, and Nissa. I’m hoping for new cards for all of them, as well as Legendary Creature versions of each one.

        PS. The official story for Elspeth is “technically dead, but not really. Currently working on breaking out of the underworld on Theros.” Wizards themselves said “Elspeth dies. But this is Theros, so that isn’t the end of her story.” They wrote it so that they can bring her back if they ever want to. In fact, they hinted strongly that we should expect her to come back in the future.

        • Yodasodabob

          Oh ok, i must have missed that, thank you!

  • Origin card for Sorin?

    • Will

      From what I recall of his back-story, he was born in Stensia on Innistrad many thousands of years before this set, at a time when the plane was blighted by famine. Sorin’s father, Edgar Markov, not wanting to see himself or his son die slowly and horribly of starvation, decided to “save” them by turning them both into vampires. The horrifying trauma of turning into a vampire caused young Sorin’s spark to ignite, and that’s how he became a planeswalker. Mind you, this was back at a time when planeswalkers were practically living gods, so if they were to do an “origin” ‘walker card for Sorin, it would have to be stupidly powerful. (at least, by our current planeswalker card standards) Like, abilities on par with Bolas’, for half the CMC or something. Still, would love to see it, too. :)

      • Seregios

        They said that a planeswalker card doesn’t represent a planeswalkers power. It only shows how much they are willing to help out.

  • Name

    Could someone please explain why this is going be the last core set?

    • Melissa Juice

      Because the way Wizards is releasing and structuring sets is changing.

      In short:
      No more core sets. Instead of one three-set block a year + a core set, it will be two 2-set blocks a year.
      I’m quite happy about this change.

      • Name

        Ahhh, ok. Thanks.

        • Melissa Juice

          :)

    • Ponies Are Sexy

      Wizards doesn’t think the core set is interesting enough. Especially as it’s supposed to represent thier game.

    • Antares

      Their explanation involved many factors:
      1) Middle sets (or in the case of Theros, middle and final sets) tended to be very poorly compared to the first (large) set, and often the third set.
      2) Core sets tended to be very boring, with only a (very pushed) card or two making any impact. They were also considered quite boring/overly simple by players.
      3) Core sets only sell while they are “new”. Once the next block hits, everyone just wants to open that set. The last few core sets, that had been better received than their predecessors, felt more like simple versions of expert sets.

      Taking that into consideration, Wizards decided that 3 sets per block were generally too much, and led to either the middle or third set being an inferior product. That made them want to switch to a 2 set per block schedule. This would cut down on the filler/chaff of each set, giving them each a better and more distinct feel (hopefully). Moving to a 2 set per block schedule, the core set now becomes an issue. Keeping the core set meant you would have a block, a new set, the core set, the second set, a block, the core set, etc. Meaning you would have a very awkward leapfrog as to which blocks and sets were in Standard, and which set fit which block. To avoid that, they eliminated the Core set, and moved into a 2 set per block, 2 block per year schedule.

      The changes to standard . . . . meh. I guess to avoid having as deep a card pool? This way it wouldn’t have felt as much as the old “extended” format did.

  • selesnyawarden

    So you see? here comes WOTC’s part-of-the-plan of “shaping” background story from walkers we know, in order to introduce us to some very new ones very soon. As soon as 2017.. comming soon. Not to mention those planes..seeding these stories is a way to close a cycle, to begin another along with the block structure. Zendikar? well, we’ve got you there, but not yet. Kamigawa? not likley, but we were teased with this fall’s set. So far Dragons and Origins were just teasers as to what is comming this fall. Shear strength, multiple plans, more routs to go.

  • Will

    I’m thinking maybe we’ll see something done with them a la double-sided transformable cards from the Innistrad block. Legendary Creature (pre-‘walker) on one side, and new mechanic “Ignite” to transform them, with the other side being them as they first emerged as planeswalkers. Either way, I’m totally chomping at the bit for the lore and flavor I foresee with this set.

    • Melissa Juice

      Manifest doesn’t play well with double-sided cards. Probably not.
      Should be interesting, though.

  • Will

    Full disclosure: I’m a Liliana fanboy, and just these new artworks + story implications are resulting in me having total fanboy nerdgasm right now. Please excuse.

  • Grixman

    Thoughts?

    • Ryū

      Hmm, seems weak. You can give all of your creatures both lifelink and deathtouch for just 4 mana with Vault of the Archangel.

    • tvmann77

      This is probably Elspeth, not Liliana.

      • SirMannyOrtiz

        Except it was explicitly stated in Pro Tour Fate Reforged that the two arts were Liliana’s card art.

        • tvmann77

          Ah. I stand corrected.

      • Melissa Juice

        It’s most certainly Liliana.

    • Gareth Martin

      Horribly Boring name and to play with for a pretty important card in the set. Also typing won’t be her name. Karn, Nilixis, Teferi and Xenagos all show her typing will probably be human wizard or something.

      • CnBCustoms

        I’d say more of a Human Cleric.

        • Gareth Martin

          Yea that could totally work. Weird they added being a healer into her back story when she was known for causing trouble and messing ’round with the boys. Personality doesn’t fit the job description well.

          • CnBCustoms

            Maybe this is before she started doing that kind of stuff.

    • Melissa Juice

      I hate fan-made cards, generally. Sorry.

      • Ponies Are Sexy

        Even when I make them?

        • Melissa Juice

          Rootwanter.
          Lol.

    • The creature type would not be “Liliana” since it’s not a Planeswalker card.

  • zoocalu

    So if these new images r to look like the actor that’s going to play them, my guess is Megan fox as lilliana, its a fox production, I think it makes sentce

    • Ponies Are Sexy

      Now I want Ben Afflek to be Jace

      • Melissa Juice

        lol

        Ewwwwww. But…helll…it kind of works.

    • Melissa Juice

      *are
      *it’s
      *Liliana
      *Fox
      *sense.

  • ManaTheDestroyer

    oh look, another set based on Jace…that’s annoying

    • SirMannyOrtiz

      How is this set based on Jace?

      • Ponies Are Sexy

        There’s a Jace concept art under two finished Liliana’s. Set’s obviously based on Jace

        • SirMannyOrtiz

          Lol honestly.

          • ManaTheDestroyer

            apparently I’m the only one that does research into the storylines behind the sets as a way to predict what we might see. The set is going to based around the origins of Lilliana, Jace, Gideon, Chandra and, Nissa. Therefore, the set is about Jace

          • Matt Wasser

            If the set is bout the origins of Lilliana, Jace, Gideon, Chandra and Nissa, then why is Jace the focuses? It could be about Lilliana or any or all of the plansewalkers not just Jace.

          • Oleksandr

            My gues is because the only way to extract the origins story without the characters monologist or breaking the time line is by having a mind Mage, Jace, go into their minds. However, that is a terrible concept and is probably bad enough for Wizzards to implement something better. I for one care little about Jace dew to the fact that his entire background sounds like an Emo kids bitchy story about why he ran away from home or something like that. And we all know Lilliana’s origins, the whole killing her own brother thing, so thus far this set just seems like a play back for those who didnt read the books.

          • Melissa Juice

            Your statement literally contradicts itself.

  • SMB379

    Is it just me, or does Jace (the background one) look like Elijah Wood?

    • McIntosh

      I’m really good friends with Elijah Wood’s grandparents.

  • Sam H.

    I hope it is some what based on Liliana.

  • SirMannyOrtiz

    I don’t really understand why everyone is so anti Jace. I understand that he sees a lot of printing, but so does Liliana, and so does Chandra. Lily received an extremely good printing in Innistrad, but no one complains about her repeated printing. I can’t think of a single Chandra printing that was as dominant as Lily of the Veil or Jace tMS, yet no one speaks up about her repeated printing. Meanwhile Tibalt and Koth have a lot of potential, and there isn’t really another black planeswalker that can take Liliana’s place either (since Sorin seems to be exclusively black/white at this point). Doesn’t anyone think that Chandra and Liliana also need to be replaced, at least temporarily, and for new mono-colored ‘walkers to be introduced? I am a huge fan of Tamiyo, but I also love Jace. I love Liliana, but I need a little variety. Garruk was my favorite planeswalker, yet I am happy to see that they have introduced someone to replace him. I am impartial to the introduction of Gideon as Ajani’s replacement, but it offers hope that one day Wizards will have a whole new cycle of ‘walkers that can take the original Lorwyn planeswalkers’ place.

    • Ryot

      Beautiful. :)

    • Ryot

      Also, people don’t like Jace mostly because people hate blue control decks, which Jace is most commonly associated with.

    • Antares

      Well, we’re moving into “No Core Set”, so my guess is that from now on we’ll see a lot more neo-walkers, and new characters (as well as new versions of the older characters). My guess is Jace gets a LOT of hate because of JTMS. The only planeswalker banned in Modern, and a card that put a full 32 copies into the Top 8 of its associated pro-tour. A lot of people also consider him a bland/badly written character that gets shoehorned into storylines for no reason (other than marketing/merchandising).

    • Melissa Juice

      Jace is boring and his face is obnoxiously plastered on everything MtG related.

    • Jace is fine. This particular artwork of him is meh. I don’t like it one bit.

  • Bob

    I hope we don’t see any Liliana + Jace lovey dubby stuff. Heh it’s Valentine’s day.

  • Griselbuddy

    I really hope that we get the other demons to whom Liliana sold her soul..

  • David Fitzsimmons

    Young Jace’s face reminds me a little of my first roommate who tried to punch me, failed so broke my glasses instead. Yeah, now my dislike of Jace has become a hate… I will never unsee this now.

    • CnBCustoms

      Ironic, since your roommate broke your glasses.

  • This One’s Just For Fun.

  • Bostorket

    Mark Rosewater’s MtG Planeswalker Babies!

  • Origins, FTV: Angels, Dragons of Tarkir, Mod Mast 2015…Im going to be homeless and have the best Mtg collection in the world!

    • CnBCustoms

      Don’t worry; you can make your home out of your epic MTG collection!

      • I will live inside Volrath’s Stronghold, Just across the Street from Urborg.

        • CnBCustoms

          Perfect!

  • TacoBellHero

    I want to point out if the set is based on when the planswalker ignited their sparks so does this mean there is finally legendary creatures version of the characters being released now?

    • UltraKilleR7

      maybe

  • Josh Kaufman

    I really do think standard in the summer needs 3 standard playable Jace’s. The one from M15 and lets get 2 in this set. I can play just islands and jaces. Although I’m sure they will find a way to include him in DoT, it’s been too long for WotC to have a block that doesn’t include jace. Jace, the Dragon Controller. He already has had like 10 different jobs, why not add a few more?

    • wut even

      Jace the burrito summoner.
      His ult “Target player spends 30 minutes on the toilet.”

      • McIntosh

        This is hilarious because there’s a taco john’s near my FNM.

        • This is hilarious because there’s a Chipotle near my LGS.

          • alex

            This is hilarious because there’s a hungry howie’s near my fnm.

    • Melissa Juice

      God help us.

  • Alex Powell

    All I really want out of DoT is the rest of the fetch lands. Here’s why I think FRF didn’t come with fetches. So they gave each clan a fetch for their own unique guild. If they gave another fetch for one of their other guilds they’re neighboring clan would also get the fetch. Example Abzan gets Verdant Catacombs then Sultai will also get it. So wizards decided to give the first and last block the fetches rather then the first and second because it would leave nothing for the third block.

    • McIntosh

      They reprinted the ally fetches because they weren’t even in modern.

    • OrphanSlayer

      They printed ally fetches to get them into modern. We are not getting enemy fetches in DoT, especially when they have another set that needs expensive cards: MM2.

  • Dr. Burn Crow

    I already miss Garruk.

    • ShahrazadMan

      So do I.

    • Melissa Juice

      Ehh. I’d like to see something more interesting in Green. Maybe an old, bearded sage. Maybe a treefolk (I’d die of happiness!). Maybe even a troll.
      Mid-twenties humans are rather boring.

      • Dr. Burn Crow

        I’d say Garruk is in his early 30’s. I want to see another elf or a nantuko in green. I also want a viashino in red. More viashino everywhere.

        • Noatzon

          But Nissa is the new green PW isn’t she?

        • Melissa Juice

          Hmm. Ooo, a nantuko would be awesome. Agreed.
          I actually feel like Viashino are a perfect fit for early-midgame red. That or orcs, maybe (which are less interesting).

          • Happy The Cat

            I’d rather have a goblin who cares about goblins
            or makes goblins and buffs them but goblins from other sources become weaker

          • Melissa Juice

            Eh. Goblin tribal has been pushed plenty. I really love the direction of Daretti. Fantastic design and flavor.

          • Happy The Cat

            I’d like dwarves
            they should reboot dwarf tribal
            infinite dwarf combo finishing with throwing all the dwarves at target players faces

          • Melissa Juice

            I’ve been thinking about that. A block with dwarves could be really cool. They also fill the rill of comic-relief (and are likely in red), but are brave, as opposed to cowardly.

            lol

        • Ray Deen

          what about vedalken? or myr? or wurms?

          • Dr. Burn Crow

            Myr walker would be my favorite.

          • Ray Deen

            totally

      • Serberus_08

        I’d rather see more about Tamiyo, to go along with your “Mid-Twenties” idea.

    • Serberus_08

      The spoilers are still fresh, I can’t imagine that they would bring up two of the original five planeswalkers. It wouldn’t make sense, given the history between Liliana and G-bones. He’s my favorite so I hope his is cool.

      • Dr. Burn Crow

        I just hope we don’t see the last of Garruk. I want him to be the Boba Fett of Magic.

        • Serberus_08

          Yeah I’m with you on that one. As long as he’s not the Jar jar then I’m okay with it lol

          • Dr. Burn Crow

            :'( Tibalt

          • Happy The Cat

            hey with the reboot tibalt could become good
            also if rebooting can take gideon from amazing to laughable what could they do with a card centered around the Chaos side of red
            -12 randomly destroy everything?

          • Dr. Burn Crow

            I want Tibalt, the Jerk

          • Happy The Cat

            change his +1 from you draw and drop to target opponent
            would be better cause it could get rid of problem cards like counterspells and removal your opponent is holding onto

    • Melissa Juice

      I can’t wait to see big bad evil Garruk myself.
      Or even “I’ve calmed down and now I’m a mellow forest druid” Garruk.

      • Dr. Burn Crow

        I guess according to the story, Garruk is now “I’m cursed, but I’m starting to like it” mode.

  • McIntosh

    I just realized that Jace doesn’t have a good on in one of the pictures. He’s only done that once and that was in his home plane, Ravnica. So Jace must be in Ravnica this set. Not to mention his spark also ignited when he was being schooled in Ravnica. I’m excited to see how Ravnica was before it became a known plane.

    • Jacob McIntosh

      *hood

    • Ronnie Geddes III

      Well that would make sense if Ravnica was Jace’s Home plane but it isn’t it is simply the plane that Jace calls his home rather than the one he is originally from

      • CnBCustoms

        Totally off topic, but where was Liliana originally from?

        • An unkown plane.

          • CnBCustoms

            … CURSE YOU WIZARDS!

          • Melissa Juice

            Well know by Summer!

        • Ronnie Geddes III

          We don’t know officially where she was from yet which is one of the things Origins is set up to remedy. We only know minor events and clips from her past through the comics and we see her post spark in the books and etc.

    • Guest

      That was a pretty ridiculous assumption you just made. Like, satire-level.

    • Marcus Tanfield

      if its in ravnica maybe they would reprint birds that would be sweet

      • Happy The Cat

        DUDE dont say things like that or they cant happen
        notice lightning bolt wasn’t reprinted and instead we have like four-five excuses for why not

    • jace

      His home plane is unknown

  • Matt Wasser

    If double-sided cards and transform are used to show planeswalker sparks igniting, then it is the returning mechanic. So then it is assumed that wizards will find new was to use it(not just with planswalker sparks). Including cards that affect double-sided cards.

    • Marvin Sürig

      this would make them something like new Ascendant/Essence cards or somehow like the cards with Ki-Coutners.
      So the cards need some effects which add Loyalty counters on them (even if they still are creatures) or give them those if they are “fliped”. For Design reasons they’ll use double sided instead of flip-cards. Which is nearly the same anyway xD.
      But it is a nice idea. Like Jace having some mill effect which adds a loyalty counter on the creature and if he has 4 or more flip the card and he is the Planeswalker. Altough te card has to be awesome as creature, too. Otherwise they’d be hard to play. Or it becomes hard to flip them but then you have a awesome planeswalker which costed low Mana as creature.

    • Ryx

      Wizards stated that they will never print transform cards again because they were too complicated to use in tournament play. Having to not only have the correct list card but having to sleeve and unsleeve cards caused the card edges to bend and the sleeves to rip. Also people tried to cheat by having the same list card set to two different creature, so sorry mate.

      • Alex K

        Wrong, Maro put double-sided cards as a three on the storm scale(0 being certain to return, like evergreen mechanics, 10 being storm). He had flip cards like in Kamigawa at eight or nine though, if that’s what you were thinking of.

      • Melissa Juice

        You’re incorrect. They won’t use Kamigawa flip. Innistrad flip is likely to return at some point..

  • That One Guy Who

    Who is in the first picture? Elspeth

    • davide

      liliana

      • DaWalt

        Garruk

        • Brock

          Are you serious? That’s totally Tibalt

          • Ray Deen

            wtf are you guys talking about?! pay respect to the great dragon nicol bolas!!!!

          • Happy The Cat

            … dude its urza
            freakin scrubs

    • Guest

      Obviously Nissa.

    • König-Mannfred

      Stormcrow

    • Dr. Burn Crow

      Click the picture. It says Liliana in the header.

    • Legendary_Thopter

      Darude – Sandstorm

      • Melissa Juice

        I love that terrible joke.

    • Jimmy Recard

      actually lilliana pre-spark!

      • Happy The Cat

        pre necromancy

    • Oleksandr

      It’s Garruk pre-spark…. and pre-sexchange.

    • Melissa Juice

      Liliana….obviously.

  • Jimmy Falon

    Why do people assume Elspeth for the first picture. I don’t think she has black hair hrmm? It’s so dead obvious, when picture is above the other (magic origins) figure it out people, figure it out. Plus both pictures depict a lady with a very slim jaw line. Just saying

    • Happy The Cat

      … they were shown during PT fate reforged
      they said who each is
      the first is liliana when she was a healer and hadn’t become a necromancer

  • AnotherMerfolkPlayer

    Maybe Planeswalker tokens will work?

  • Somebody you will never meet

    I believe the first picture maybe Liliana when she went to search for something to cure her brother (My lore maybe off on this one) before she became a planeswalker or made a deal with the 4 demons.

  • Brock

    What if we get more planeswalker flip cards like Innistrad Garruk? Pre spark on one side fulfill some condition and flip them into planeswalkers?

    • Happy The Cat

      or creatures that spark and flip

      • Noatzon

        It won’t happen C: As you can read further down WOTC thought it was to troublesome in tournament play and will never to transform cards again. They might do flip cards like the ones in Kamigawa or perhaps have token PW:s V:

        • Alex K

          Wrong, Maro put double-sided cards as a three on the storm scale(0 being
          certain to return, like evergreen mechanics, 10 being never to return, like storm). He had
          flip cards like in Kamigawa at eight or nine.

          • source?

          • Happy The Cat

            you do realize both are no matter what coming back in the next un- set
            on the same card
            with suspend into morph
            then phasing
            also it’s free but unless you pay x mana you lose
            also miracle
            also if you control your commander it gets +2/+2 (even though it is a pw)
            also shadow
            also banding with other planeswalkers
            also potato (permanents with potato win, this does not cause the controlling player to win)

          • Squirrel Lover

            Are you sure?

          • Happy The Cat

            if they make a next un-set then probably yes
            also that would complete the un-block

          • kasigah

            You forgot about the shadow, flanking, and megalandfall

        • Happy The Cat

          probably not kamigawa ones cause that would leave so little room to work with

        • CnBCustoms

          They wouldn’t do the Kamigawa flip cards. If I’m not mistaken, they tried the Innistrad flip method because the Kamigawa variant was clunky, and to be frank, rather unattractive.

          • Noatzon

            Ah, i didn’t know that. Well i think it’s safe to assume that neither Kamigava or innistrad flip/transform cards will return. Tokens could be a valid theory but we’ll just have to wait and see C:

          • Imalwaysangry

            I dunno, Rosewater said there would be a legendary werewolf down the road… and I was pretty happy about that

          • Melissa Juice

            The Innistrad flip cards were very popular and will almost certainly return at some point.

          • Hedronal

            And now the mechanic has been confirmed by the PAX panel today.

          • Melissa Juice

            For Zendikar? Is that what you mean?

          • Hedronal

            Transform? That mechanic that all double-sided cards, including the new Liliana have?

          • Melissa Juice

            Just saw the new Liliana.

            Wow. Didn’t expect it see the mechanic back so soon.
            Seems like it should be pretty fun for the last core set.

          • Hedronal

            It was in Innistrad for me, it’s even my favorite mechanic.

          • Hedronal

            Agreed. I wonder if just the five planeswalkers will have it, or if other things will as well.

          • Melissa Juice

            All five planeswalkers almost definitely.
            I have no clue about other cards. My guess is no, just to make it feel even more planeswalker-y, but who knows.

          • Hedronal

            I’m crossing my fingers for more, enough to get some cards that also interact with the mechanic, like Innistrad’s Moonmist, though definitely not a functional reprint of that card.

          • Hedronal

            I’m hoping for enough of them that there can be some form of interface cards, such as Innistrad’s Moonmist (Though definitely not Moonmist).

          • Melissa Juice

            That could be cool. It’s bound to be an epic final core set. That’s for sure.

          • Hedronal

            Part of me wants to think of it as a one-set, temporally asynchronous block.

          • Melissa Juice

            Yeah, I think it’s going to feel like that. Kind of a cool idea.

          • Hedronal

            Oh, also spatially asynchronous, across Zendikar and who knows what nine other planes, apparently.

          • Hedronal

            Now that I think of it, also spatially asynchronous as well, apparently across Zendikar and nine more planes.

        • Adam Watson

          What do you think now about wizards doing flip cards?

          • Noatzon

            What do you want me to say? Admitting my wrongs and proving that your all so great? I’m not surprised that they made ´em and my doubts where only because people who seemed to have far more knowledge than me stated that they weren’t coming back. I think it’s awesome but still bothersome to see transform cards again and like the overall theme so far. Does that answer your question? C:

          • Adam Watson

            I was just wanting a simple opinion. Nothing to prove here. Did I upset you somehow.

          • Noatzon

            I’m sorry. I was a bit pissed of and tired and took it out on you. That was not my intention :X But simply put i’m wxcited about flipcards since i started playing Magic in Avacyn Returned but at the same time i’m a bit sceptical since it’s really a bother to have to change the card if you have it in a sleeve. It’s also the problem with alot of awesome magic things coming out in a quick following so my wallets draining pretty quick :)

    • Melissa Juice

      Flip does not play well with Manifest at all. So, not gonna happen.
      One day, perhaps.

      • kasigah

        “does not play well with Manifest”
        “You know, we weren’t going to put flip cards in this set, but that Ryan Smith guy challenged us, so now we have to.” – WoTC

        • Melissa Juice

          I know, right? Thank goodness they won’t be drafted together. That would be hell. I’m surprised, but glad to see the mechanic back so quickly.

          • Ryan, you are wrong.
            You don’t play with unsleeved flip cards in your deck. You either pull a n00b and use the checklist cards, or you sleeve them.

            Face down doesn’t affect transform. You can’t morph a Mayor of Avabruck and get a Howlpack, it doesn’t work like that.

          • Melissa Juice

            What on earth are you talking about?

          • Trevor Terry

            He’s talking about the effects of manifest on a double-sided flip card, for some silly reason.

            I assume he believes you meant something different by “Flip does not play well with Manifest at all” than what was actually meant.

  • Happy The Cat

    I have to point out jaces super nipple
    the man has mana shooting from it

    • FatPigeons

      He calmed his tit.

      Just the one tit.

      He left the other crazy and out of control.

      That’s his party tit.

      • Bostorket

        It’s his sculpting tit.

        • Happy The Cat

          its funny cause its almost perfectly lined up with the background jace’s tit
          what if that tit is connected to the jace from before the time alter and now connects him to the old multiverse and links him to a way to repair planes damaged by the time flux

  • Melissa Juice

    Ten different planes in this set.
    Very cool design.

    • Matt Wasser

      Other then Zendacar, I wander what other planes we’ll be seeing.

      • Melissa Juice

        *Zendicar
        *wonder

        • Jazzyboy1

          *Zendikar

          • Luke Salisbury

            But, of course he was only testing you

          • Melissa Juice

            lol

            I love accidentally doing that. Oops.

  • Matt Wasser

    They said that they chose the plansewalkers they chose because they will play a big part of the story in the near future. Since two of the walkers story involves the Eldrazi, I think it is safe to assume that the Eldrazi in the near future. Liliana will be hunting another one of her demines and Jace(if I remember right) is trying to help Garruic with his curse. I am most excited for the return of the Eldrazi then anything else.

    • Melissa Juice

      *spelling

      • Arceus

        Let them live.

      • Matt Wasser

        I know I’m a bad speller, but you do get what I was saying.

    • Umm, the only ‘walker in this that wasn’t tied into the Eldrazi is Liliana.

      • UnhealthyAttachmentToZendikar

        Yea, but Jace and Chandra aren’t really connected to the Eldrazi. It’s probably more of a mistake that they try to not remember to them. What happens on Zendikar stays on Zendikar (until Ob regains his spark and the Eldrazi return to their native realm). We do still have Chandra’s story that needs to be pursued. Jace is actively trying to help Garruk before Garruk becomes even more of a mindless murderer. Also, isn’t Lili like one or two demons away from being free?

  • Squirrel Lover

    I think Lilliana got here powers from a Storm Crow, and there are 3 crows in the picture. Lilliana = illuminati confirmed.

    • princejp11

      There’s 4 crows in the pic

      • CnBCustoms

        Half-Life 4 confirmed :3

        • kasigah

          Valve: taking a note from Microsoft and skipping a number.

  • Mulldrifter

    that jace art literally looks like his head was shooped on

    • SirMannyOrtiz

      What does “shooped on” mean?

  • Ole Lukøje

    More undying, please

    • Melissa Juice

      Undying is one of my favorite mechanics. I’m sure it’ll be back someday.

    • The MacGuffin Guy

      Undying sliver!

  • Does any one in here remember vera lynn?

  • selesnyawarden

    So this is the “path paving” I reffered to a few months ago, on account of the apparent eagerness from many MTG fans myself included, to return to Zendikar which will happen, but NOT YET. And then comes commander 2014 with Nahiri. Then came the Khans of Tarkir set and in fate reforeged featured Ugin, the second of three planeswalkers to seal the Eldrazi. But do you all want to see “who” is hunting Jace for what he did? Do you want to see why Liliana chose the “dark pact” before her spark ignited? Do we all want to go to Lorwyn someday? (Nissa I’m looking at you) This and more will come. The focus of storytelling in MTG is undergoing a change in archs to make the stories more attractive, not linear or solid, but to match mildly the two block per sets paradigm. And yes, Gideon’s master apparently is alive but some misterious assasin kills him. Tamiyo will show up again to remeber all players she exists still. And the teaser for the new dragons in tarkir “Elder dragon” don’t fool anyone, it should be apparent now that something cool is comming. Magic origins just smoothens the path of joy that the fall set will bring. Gather your inner strength.

  • Everyone

    Dear Wizards,

    Please never print more Eldrazi titans.

    Sincerely,

    Everyone

    • TheseRustedCogs

      Hey, speak for yourself. This does not represent me or my desires. I would love to see more Eldrazi. I’ve been wanting more ever since Rise. Nissa wandering for help excited me, expanding nihiri’s story excited me, finding Ugin excited me. It’s coming. And I’m loving it.

      • Happy The Cat

        umm
        look at his name
        it’s like a joke or something

    • Arceus

      Well…. Battle for Zendikar and showing Gideon battling Ulamog must have been bad news for you. :(

    • Dear Wizards,

      Please Ignore Everyone

      Sincerely,

      Everyone who plays tron

  • Eagle7373

    So is this going to be the next core set?

  • derp

    to tell everyone this a mtg game for consoles and its free to play also unlike other mtg games the card list gets updated with each new set released also it has multiplayer like two headed giant and all the fun stuff also it has deckbuilding with a huge list of cards that gets updated with every set released also its for next gen and pc and ipad and iphone

    • Melissa Juice

      Holy hell. Please use basic grammar. That hurt.

      • Ryan Smith

        god damn it I’m such a self-righteous prick.

        • Don’t try to knock him down just because you don’t like the fact that he actually cares about grammar and punctuation. Using his name doesn’t make you look any better.

          • Dr. Burn Crow

            Ka-KAW!

          • Daniel Gilmore

            truer words have never been cawed

          • Ah! Dr. Storm Crow! My old nemesis!

          • Dr. Burn Crow

            I don’t even know you, man, but I’ll peck your eyes out if I have to.

        • Melissa Juice

          Basic grammar isn’t righteousness, it’s common courtesy. It’s rude to make people read terrible writing.

    • BobThaMole

      you should use periods and commas so that someone can know when your sentence ends if you don’t then it makes it really difficult to read im just saying no one is going to take you seriously when you cant seem to use the most basic of grammar oh and this is going to be a core set with actual cards not an app or console game it says that in the description at the top please do some research before posting

      • Grammar nazi

        You should take your own advice.

        • Mario

          Irony is truly the forbidden fruit.

          • Derp, the king of run-on sentences…

        • Melissa Juice

          That was the joke…

        • John Kerpan

          Its ok, irony is hard enough for some people to detect in person.

    • Jazzyboy1

      Pretty sure that game is ‘Magic Duels Origins. Seperate from this physical set, which is just called ‘Magic Origins’.

  • Ryū

    I think Gideon will be the most interesting of the 5, as he is the least explored.

    • Well that depends on what you mean by explored.

    • Derek Niles

      They released a snapshot of the video game coming out along side this set with Gideon’s bio. Apparently he was a warrior on Theros as a child

      • yumyum36

        Aw yeah, they’ll probably reprint cards from each plane that the walkers came from. More Theros cards is great.

        • disqus_A12YL8TXnr

          Now I’m wondering if they’ll reprint the gods

      • Ryū

        That’s kinda awesome.

  • Matt Wasser

    That Lilliana preview card proves that double-sided cards and the transform mechanic is returning in this set.

    • Gareth Martin

      na DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

  • Ryx

    Okay, since the new walker are placed at the point when their sparks ignited, here are my half baked ideas.
    Jace “ignited’ during his training so maybe you have to cast multiple spell in a single turn to flip him
    Chandra ignited after causing a huge fire so maybe you need to do enough burn damage.
    Gideon ignited when fighting an opponent so you possibly have to swing with him as a creature and deal damage/kill a defender to flip
    Nissa spark was not explained in great detail, but since she was born in zendikar, it maybe a landfall style effect to flip her.

    • Antares

      I’m thinking Jace might be for drawing lots of cards at once. Something like, “If you draw more than 3 cards at one time, flip Jace”.
      Nissa will be very interesting, since we know so little about her.
      I agree on Chandra. She’ll likely be burn related.
      Gideon . . . I’m thinking something about killing an attacking creature. He’s got a hero complex, so I can see him having to “defend” the player for his spark to ignite.

      I’m just hoping the creature versions are decent, unlike Liliana (Granted, Black has NEVER been too great on converted P/T).

      • Ryx

        Yeah, good points. Since we are returning to Zendikar, maybe Jace will return to his mill complex in his walker form. Gideon will probably be the most powerful creature wise, maybe a 4/4 vigilance for 2WW. Each of their creature form will probably have an ability like Jace will have hexproof, Chandra will have 1R, deal two damage type effect and Nissa maybe will have G, tap make an 1/1 elf token. I kinda like this new type of walker, while most people will see it as annoying to have to wait probably have to wait a turn to use their planeswalker effects but, if it could be done at instant speed, it could be useful for getting around removal since the card exiles then flips.

    • Steak Sauce

      Tibalt’s spark ignited while reading Shakespeare’s ‘Romeo and Juliet’ and seeing that there’s a character in that story named Tybalt.

  • The MacGuffin Guy

    So do we know if we are we getting other flip cards besides the classic walkers? with Inistrad you were guaranteed a flip card, so I am wondering are they making other transform cards or just having this one replace your rare if you get a flip-walker?

    • Gareth Martin

      I doubt they are adding flip cards without a lore reason. Becoming a PW is a lore reason. highly doubtful we are getting any flips besides PWs.

      • We might get younger versions of other legends. Imagine… Baby Avacyn.

        • Gareth Martin

          I don’t think that requires a flip card though… flipping works with ‘walkers because their sparks ignite and they gain their powers. It is an instant thing.

          I think it’s just gonna be cards of their home planes and them. That is big enough!

          • Wait… what about flip lands… Pre eldrazi zendikar flips to eldrazi zendikar. That kind of thing. Showing how certain events changed the world.

  • Lone Wolf 1123

    lily can flip herself, if you play one with another out in creature form then legend rule goes, send one, a nontoken creature died and the other flips

    • Not quite.The legend rule states that no two legendary creatures of the same name can exist on your side of the battlefield. If two would be in play one must be chosen and moved to the graveyard, this happens immediately as a state based action and does not use the stack. The even though the creature is moved from the battlefield to the graveyard it is not considered to “die” and therefore won’t trigger any dying effects that you may have on the board.

      • EddieDeanofIgnorance

        Wrong, “die” means “is put into a graveyard from the battlefield” and is typically only used in regards to creatures. The legend rule does not cause Lili 2 to skip the battlefield and go directly to the graveyard. It touches the battlefield, the game state is checked, and if both permanents are controlled by the same player that player chooses one to put into the graveyard. From the battlefield. The game will see that a creature died, and the surviving Lili will exile and transform.

        To be clear: anything that causes a creature to move from the battlefield to the graveyard, without moving to any other zone in between, will trigger a “whenever a creature dies” effect. Sacrifice, destruction, toughness of 0 or less, legend rule. Cards that never touch the graveyard, such as Darksteel Colossus (because of its replacement ability) won’t trigger such effects.

  • Lone Wolf 1123

    also the transform mechanic works a bit different in this from what we’ve seen so far, unlike the innistrad transform cards who just flip, lily exiles herself then comes back in the other form, while in many situations this will function no differently than if they just flipped as there are few to no cards that trigger when walkers enter the battlefield, it will cause some interesting interactions, game mechanic wise this is the simplest way to have these cards work, otherwise they would have to add/edit the rules on walkers so that they got counters when they flipped or put rules text on the card to tell us, but this way is easier and makes the cards more powerful, for example if your opponent tries to downfall you lily in creature form you can then bile blight one of your own creatures in response, and have her ability trigger so that she exiles herself and reenters meaning your opponent’s downfall loses its target and fails to resolve

    • Hedronal

      The exile clause also seems to be to prevent such things as a non-creature planeswalker being in combat against a creature. There are already rules to handle this, but not everyone knows to remove a non-creature from combat immediately, so that prevents further confusion.

      • richardshort2001

        plus if it didn’t exile and return, it wouldn’t gain its starting loyalty counters. So you can’t use the Innistrad cards that “Transform all Humans.” She’d immediately die.

        • Marvin Sürig

          There is a way^^ You can use every Planeswalker like Gideon and Sharkan which can turn to creatures and use fate transfer to giver such a Planeswalker counters from them then if you know she is save transform all humans and get the Emblem ;)

        • Hedronal

          Yes, as Lone Wolf said in the post that your reply is a reply to. “otherwise they would have to add/edit the rules on walkers so that they got counters when they flipped or put rules text on the card to tell us”

    • Kev

      She exiles so she can re-enter with loyalty counters. If she just flipped she would immediately die from having 0 loyalty.

      • lunchbox4207

        the only other planeswalker that flipped was garruk relentless he had to have less then two counters then he flipped but he still had counters on him and it did not add or remove counters when he flipped. if he went to zero counter he dies and does not flip

        • UnhealthyAttachmentToZendikar

          He already had loyalty counters on himself though. This is an entirely different interaction. Think of it as a creature with +1/+1 counters on it being turned into a noncreature artifact. The counters don’t turn into charge counters, they’re still +1/+1’s that have lost usefulness. If Lili simply flipped as a creature she would not have any loyalty counters in her because she never had any loyalty counters on her in the first place.

      • CnBCustoms

        It also fit flavor. When something is exiled, it’s sent to the Æther. The planeswalkers travel to planes via the Æther. When their spark ignites, they planeswalk unintentionally (at least that’s what I’ve noticed.) It kind of makes sense.

    • Melissa Juice

      Periods are your friend.

  • baxterwasaman

    i wonder could you use her ultimate and with that on the stack respond and blink her

    • Marvin Sürig

      I don’t know might not work because of 0 loyalty rule. but you could if she still has one.
      While I think about it. This could be an awesome Idea to generate tokens.
      First way to use her: Sacrifice creature get Token return creature with convert manacost of two to the battlefield. Blink her with Conjurer’s Closet get her back as a creature. Repeat in next turn. Depending on the creature you sacrifice this could be really strong.
      Next nice way to use/abuse ability. Play with Arcane Spell Groyo’s Vengeance. Sacrifice Creature. Get token and switch her to Planeswalker. Use -3 Abbility get Creature for 3 back (something like Eternal Witness). Return Groyo’s Vengeance to your hand and play it. Congrateulation you got you creature to sacrifice and your Lillian back repeat for as long you can spen {1}{B}.
      I’m grateful for your hint. I found an even better way which I keep secret xD

      • Antares

        She would re-enter as a creature, though. That’s how it works with werewolves. When you used Restoration Angel on a Huntmaster of the Fells, it would blink as its Werewolf form, and then re-enter in its Human form. I think she’d re-enter as a creature if you could exile her as a Planeswalker.

        • But he’s saying that he can’t target the PW with Closet. He said nothing about returning face-up.

      • kasigah

        You couldn’t Conjurer’s Closet her though, since CC only affects creatures, and Lili would be a Planeswalker as of that point.

      • sadness

        I wish I understood bad English so I could figure out wtf you are trying to say.

    • lunchbox4207

      ultimate tigger goes on the stack. then state based action liliana dies before you can respond.

  • Matt Wasser

    They’ve said that this set will focus on ten planes. I’m just wondering witch planes they will focus on. Maybe it will be planes we haven’t seen in for a long time.

    • Zendikar is one of them and, correct me if I’m wrong, they said the others are new. Like I said though, I may be wrong.

      • Matt Wasser

        The article that was on the main sit said some of the planes were ones we’ve seen before and some that were new.

        • Phil Bowles

          So far we know Zendikar (Nissa’s home plane), Theros (Gideon’s home plane), Bant (Gideon’s first planeswalk), and at least one new plane (Chandra’s home plane). It’s known from the planeswalker novels that Jace visited Kamigawa before the events of the story – it’s possible that’s his ‘first planeswalk’. And it’s been suggested that Nissa visited Lorwyn; again we don’t know if that was her first planeswalk, but Wizards may decide that it was so that they can bring Lorwyn cards back (since the setting can’t be revisited as Lorwyn-as-was no longer exists). And surely one of them has to have spent time on Dominaria?

          • disqus_A12YL8TXnr

            Maybe Elspeth will show up again if we get Bant again. It isn’t her home plane (I don’t think it was her first planeswalk either), but her time on Bant is a major part of her as a character.

          • kiddrangon

            We got Jace’s, lilanna’s and Chandra’s home planes, which are new ones. Theros and Zendikar too. Then we also got the first place they planeswalk too.

          • CnBCustoms

            I always kinda figured that Jace was from Ravnica.

          • Abyss King

            He certainly spends a lot of time there as its his ADOPTED home and he is the living guild pact.

          • CnBCustoms

            For now, I’ll treat it as his home plane in my mind.

          • Hedronal

            Home yes, place of origin, no.

          • kiddrangon

            He wasn’t tho. He was mainly on Ravnica but he wasn’t from it.

          • Kameenook

            I could be wrong, but I Think Bant is a shard of Alara, not its own plane. So Alara would be Gideon’s first planeswalk, most specifically the Bant shard.

          • Hedronal

            True, it was a shard/sub-plane, but it was still a plane, even if it isn’t one anymore.

          • Hedronal

            Where is it said that Bant is Gideon’s first planeswalk? Otherwise everything there looks about right.
            Gideon: Theros, (Bant/Alara?)
            Jace: Unknown, (Kamigawa?)
            Liliana: Unknown, Unknown
            Chandra: Unknown, Unknown
            Nissa: Zendikar, (Lorwyn?)
            Those could be half of them there. Given the chances of a return to Lorwyn, Alara, or Kamigawa, this could be a good way to get a look at them, as they were, without a whole set or block on them.

  • Djough Smytthe

    Gideon is from Theros, and his original name is Kytheon Iora. Kytheon Iora was in a UR article a while ago and a picture of Gideon as a child was spoiled with a short paragraph saying that Gideon was originally Kytheon as a boy. Also, Gideon is known to be from an order known as “Heliud.”

    • Hedronal

      Which begs the question of where that order came from, as Heliod seemed ignorant of interplanar events.

      • Dr. Burn Crow

        Well, it does look like many planes have a very similar language, so it’s fully possible that it’s entirely coincidental. Theros is not the only plane with a sun, after all.

        • Hedronal

          True, but there’s a Theran from an interplanar group with a name like a person that’s been significant on Theros for an extended time, and a hinted similar mana-association. I imagine Gideon at least asked about the name. Most planes seem to just think of their sun as a sun, barring Theros and Mirrodin, be they suns or moons on the latter.

          Also, who knows what mana does to translations, it could do many of them automatically, turning nearly irreconcilable languages into dialectic differences.

          • Dr. Burn Crow

            Long story short, you’re reading way too much into it.

          • Hedronal

            Until such a time as the relation is confirmed coincidental, I will disagree on that point. Theorizing, in large or in small, is, for me at least, part of what makes Mtg fun.

          • Dr. Burn Crow

            True, I’ve spouted a theory or two i

          • Hedronal

            Sorry, but I don’t know where you’re going with that, it looks to me at this point that it was cut off after “two i”.

  • welan

    I hope they will support Nissa for forest and not Elf. I know it s part of her flavor but I find it to limited.

    • kiddrangon

      With Battle of Zenidikar coming out after Origins, I think they will end up doing elfs again. Not forest, but we can hope can’t we.

      • Gareth Martin

        What does that matter when it comes to her abilities?

        • kiddrangon

          She is gonna be more like Worldwaker or Revane? Thats what we wanna know.

          Worldwaker would be Forest.
          Revane would be Elves.

          • Gareth Martin

            personally I’d like to see forest stuff!

          • Jandro

            How about both! Let’s get a nissa whose emblem turns elves into forests and forests into 1/1 elves!

          • Gareth Martin

            that sounds horrible lol.

          • ValorEqualsAlvor

            Actually, that sounds rather awesome. A 1/1 elf is rarely just a 1/1 with the proper elves on the field. With Elvish Archdruid alone, your five Forests are now five 2/2 elves. Assuming you have a couple of other elves, because you would by then, Elvish Archdruid can tap for sevenish, your Forest/Elves can tap for more, and hello Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger.

          • Gareth Martin

            Yea no thnx. Way to complicated for a planeswalker. And we already have 2 out of 2 of her cards do similar things. Why make the 3rd card combining the others? Have her do something a bit different.

          • kiddrangon

            idk, IDC

      • Antares

        I would prefer “Lands matter” Nissa more than “Elves matter” Nissa. I like Worldwaker a LOT more than Revane. Anyone else think Worldwaker might be reprinted in Battle for Zendikar? Or something with similar abilities?

  • Juanito Jones

    I think that all walkers will be 3cmc or less, this way they’ll have more chance to fit in competitive formats like Standard and Modern. The other reason it’s the Tiny Leaders thing. Wizards like to estimulate these formats, and will be cool to have five new commanders/walkers in both normal EDH and Tiny. Seems fair to me.
    The next thing i suppose is that the five homeplanes wil be associated to the M15’s Souls. Look that Nissa is from Zendikar(Soul of Zendikar in green), Gideon was confirmed to be from Theros(Soul of Theros in White). We have old speculation saying that Jace born in Ravnica and Lilliana in Innistrad(Soul of Ravnica in Blue and Soul of Innistrad in Black). Thinking that way, Chandra can be from Shandalar.
    What do you think?

    • kiddrangon

      I don’t think MTG are doing it for those reasons, I do believe they will me 3cmc or less because of their age, they all are young when their spark ignited so that’s understandable. But MTG won’t go and make 5+ planeswalkers just because of Tiny Leaders which I also do believe isn’t a 100% sanctioned format yet.

      I could be wrong but i highly doubt they will do that.

      • Ryx

        Also, the sets are made years in advance so even if wizards recognizes Tiny Leaders, they won’t start considering it in future set designs until some time in the future.

        • kiddrangon

          I wouldn’t say “years in advance” but I will agree they are planned and edited until a certain point before its release date and then its released… Not “years”, I would say more like a year at max because us the players are always changing and wanting new things, and MTG wants to be able to help and give as much as they can without making anything too over powerful.

          • Kameenook

            I don’t they even yet design cards with EDH in mind. I could be wrong though.

          • kiddrangon

            They have made a few meant for EDH like Command Tower. But idk how many either.

          • Kameenook

            That was printed in an EDH set though, the EDH sets certainly are created with EDH in mind. I meant more of the standard card design, they certainly design cards for standard play, and occasionally for eternal formats, but I’m not sure about EDH.

          • kiddrangon

            True. I don’t think they make many if they do make any aimed at EDH while for standard at least. It might happen as a mistake but yay but lol.

          • Melissa Juice

            They definitely do design specifically for Commander. Not too much per set, but a little here and there. Like the new super-clone.

    • Scott Mc clean

      I do thouroughly agree with the whole soul thing. Gideon is from Theros…

    • FTV: Reserved

      If your reasoning is correct, we will also get a baby Karn from New Phyrexia. I hope you are correct.

      • König-Mannfred

        i call bul**hit, more likely a baby ugin cause he could actualy have had an childhood…asuming he was not born during Stormy lightningtime

        • Dr. Burn Crow

          I want a baby Karn…

          • Kameenook

            I want a baby storm crow. (How do storm crows have babies?)

          • Jandro

            No. Full grown storm crows materialize out of divine energy when a thousand goat tokens are sacrificed to the overstormcrow.

          • Dr. Burn Crow

            Either that or we emerge from the split skull of a giant space baby when they are ready to mature into giant space toddlers.

          • Kameenook

            So how many Cloudgoat Ranger do I have to buy?

      • Gareth Martin

        Karn was never a baby… he is a golem lol. Also Karn was made on Dominaria. Do you even lore?

    • Antares

      Wrong. At least on the “planes”. Wizards stated blatantly that Chandra’s home plane was completely unknown to us. So that breaks the cycle. Ravnica is Jace’s adoptive home plane. It’s always been stated that it’s not his original home plane. Liliana could be from Innistrad, I suppose. . . .

      • disqus_A12YL8TXnr

        It could explain how she knew about Griselbrand.

  • Eric Barton

    I’m just gonna go out and say it. Moonmist. That is all.

    • Fakeromon .

      Moonmist wouldnt work because the loyaly on the corner is like an etb effect. That is why liliana is exiled when she transforms – that would work if, when transformed there was an effect that read: “when liliana transforms, put 3 loyalty counters on her.”

      • Guest

        So Garruk Relentless is just the world’s dumbest card?

        • Jazzyboy1

          “Planeswalkers
          have loyalty. A planeswalker enters the battlefield with a number of
          loyalty counters on it equal to the number printed in its lower right
          corner.”

          From Garruk Relentless’ Gatherer page. Both sides of his card are Planeswalkers and 1 side enters with 3 loyalty counters. If you transform him, he has the number of loyalty counters he had left before transforming.

          • Joaquim Mp

            ^ that

    • Melissa Juice

      There probably won’t be werewolves in this set. Maaaaayyyyybe.

  • da

    So wait.. is this an actual set, or just a video game (the ones that come with promo cards like Nissa)

    • BariumBlade

      It’s an actual set. It’s technically the last Core set.

      • Him

        why the last?

        • kiddrangon

          They are doing 2 blocks set instead of 3+1 now.

          3 sets for block + Core

          They doing it like this now.

          2 sets per block.

          • Him

            ew… so then 2 blocks a year?

          • MagicSpoiler
          • kiddrangon

            Yea, but 3/4 sets in standard. I thinking 4.

          • Melissa Juice

            Yes. And why is that bad? It’s much more fun than one a year and a pointless core set.

          • Him

            Not as much lore as with 3 sets

          • Melissa Juice

            Except that they can and will return to planes frequently. You’re actually getting four lore sets a year with the new format, as opposed to three and a flavorless core set.

          • Him

            Right, but not the elongated and uninterrupted lore of a three block set.
            I have to say, I feel like something major is gonna happen in magic soon, everything is like, mattering, and affecting other planes. Nicol Bolas is going down.

          • Melissa Juice

            Sure, but Wizards tends to struggle to make three sets actually matter lore-wise anyway. All you really need for a straightforward story is two parts:

            –An introduction to what’s going down on the plane (setting, conflict)
            –And a shake-up, or change to that situation (climax, resolution).

            I definitely think some big, Bolas-related things are going down soon. It shall be interesting.

          • Him

            2 troo

          • dendus

            I agree or maybe more phyrexians????????

          • Melissa Juice

            Not so soon, probably, but undoubtedly one of these days.

        • BariumBlade

          Because they are officially getting rid of the core sets. This was announced almost a year ago. They’re completely redoing the entirety of how they release sets.

  • Antares

    I wonder if we’ll get a Legendary Creature or Planeswalker Minion cycle. I’m hoping for Legendary Creatures that are related to how the planeswalkers each ascended. We could have the guy Gideon fought/killed, Liliana’s brother, . . . uh. . . someone from Chandra’s villag. . . e? someone related in some vague way to Nissa? Jace . . . uh. . . his master, maybe?

    However, knowing Wizards, we’ll have a Planeswalker Minion cycle. We had a Legendary creature cycle in Magic 2015.

    Also, badass Elves, Angels, and Knights please. We’ve been missing those lately. A LOT.

    • ELVES ELVES ELVES OMG ELVES!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Melissa Juice

      Liliana’s brother makes absolutely no sense as a card. It’s a sick kid. What on earth could that even do?

      • Kameenook

        I think we’ve got Lili’s brother covered in the zombie she makes when she flips.

        • Melissa Juice

          lol
          That’s pretty dark humor.

          • Antares

            Nah, just accurate. The guy who gives her the “cure” sounds quite legit. That being said, I’m thinking we’re MUCH more likely to see a “Planeswalker Minion” cycle rather than a “Legendary creature” cycle.

          • Melissa Juice

            You don’t find that to be pretty morbid humor? Dead brother as a zombie?

          • Gareth Martin

            It isn’t humorous.

          • Melissa Juice

            I’d have to disagree. It’s funny, in a rather disturbing way.

          • Gareth Martin

            She fails to save her brother and he is raised as a living corpse. So funny!

          • Melissa Juice

            Black humor, remember. Black.
            It’s an almost textbook example.

          • Gareth Martin

            It still needs something that makes it funny. Or am I supposed to be laughing when I watch zombie movies as they deal with their loved ones turning? I’m sure you guys think it’s funny, but I require a joke or something to warrant a laugh.

          • Melissa Juice

            *sigh*

          • Ryū

            Gotta savor the morbid irony of curing sanity and life.

          • Melissa Juice

            Indeed so.

      • Ryū

        What about the guy that gave her the “cure” for her brother?

        • Melissa Juice

          I could see that, definitely.

      • Darth Maramu

        I’ve read almost nothing about Liliana’s background, but I can imagine something like:

        Liliana’s Brother 2W 0/2
        Defender, Infefct.
        When Liliana’s Brother blocks, put a -1/-1 counter on every attacking creature.

        Yeah, I know 0 power with Infect makes very few sense (just almost as much as 1/1 creatures with Trample, which we have seen though), and of course I know we are never going to see Infect in a core set, specially since this is the last one, but I’m also pretty sure we are not going to see Liliana’s Brother as a card :P

  • Guest

    Ob Nixilis’s playlist: Slowly We Rot, Cause of Death, The End Complete … Isn’t that Ob Vious?

  • Jazzyboy1

    I can’t wait to see the havoc when we have morph and double-faced cards in the same Standard. It shall be glorious.

    • Kameenook

      Wizards needs to print more chaos cards. How about more voting cards too.

    • Hedronal

      With manifest and double-faced cards together, there are cards that technically have an invisible third anonymous side.

  • Kameenook

    Are the spoilers coming here or MM2 next?

    • Hedronal

      I think it’s MM2, then here, then FTV: Angels, and then BFZ.

  • DRACHIR

    Liliana’s artworks look great :) I like how the young, modestly clothed, Lili plays with her hair and in the flip-artwork reigns like the Queen of the Damned she is. :D

    On the other hand i don’t like the Jace art that much (I think these are the artworks for the PW-Card) …
    The flip-artwork of the grown up Jace is good – going back to the style of Jace 1 and JTMS, where he has his hood up and looks all badass – but the young Jace here looks like an annyoing prick and i feel zero sympathy for him, although I love his lore and like to play JTMS myself.
    Additionally it shows us no other face of his character, whereas Liliana’s artwork does accomplish that with ease.

    I hope they reconsider the art and maybe take a scene like depicting Jace just sitting carefree at a marketplace, pointing his face to the warm sun, eyes closed, with a faint smile on his lips, because he is actually reading the minds of the local traders.

    But maybe i am little biased and just saw too many of these flashy: here-i-come-and-kill-you-artworks. Don’t misunderstand, I like them more often than not, but not so much in this case.

    What do you guys think?

    • Ryx

      Well, reading Jace’s back story, he would probably come across as the tough, “mess with me and it Literally will be the last thing you will remember” kinda kid.

      • Drachir

        You’re right, but for me it would have been interesteing to see a picture of his even earlier days, because every great and strong willed mind starts off as curious, carefree and innocent.
        I think this picture could be about Jace effectively destroying his master. Which he regrets so much that he erases this moment of his own memory.

        • Ryx

          Well seeing this set is about Jace, Chandra, Gideon, Liliana, Nissa’s back stories, it’s probably safe to assume that their will be multiple cards in the set with them in the art, detailing parts of their story.

  • Kameenook

    That awkward moment where you check every day for spoilers. And they never come. I do have zero patience.

    • The comments barely change either :(

    • Hammer Ryan

      Same

    • Ryū

      Patience, my dear pit demon, patience.

  • Pej Pej

    Stop ask for spoilers, look at the release date.

    • Who’s asking for spoilers?

      • Trevor Terry

        I believe he’s referring to Kameenook’s post below.

        • Even so he didn’t ask for any.

          • Trevor Terry

            Kameenook’s post did not directly say “WANT SPOILERZ PLLZ” but it was definitely a way of asking for spoilers.

            “That awkward moment where you check every day for spoilers. And they never come. I do have zero patience.”

          • Not really, it was just a confession of checking everyday. You develop it so you don’t miss any cards that could get leaked. Hardly a way of asking for spoilers.

  • niz-mizzet

    ya know this may sound like a stretch but since this is the past we could and I know this is a very slim chance see an urza planeswalker card once again this is stretch but it would be awesome to see an actual urza card

    • Ryū

      Yeah, not going to happen anytime soon. Origins will be focused almost entirely on the 5 mentioned walkers.

      • niz-mizzet

        I figured that hope maybe some day

        • Noatzon

          If we ever see Urza it won’t be in a set like this C: He would most likely be printed in a Commander product or conspiracy kind of thing so as to not make standard strange with a PW that’s dead and probably not related to the story at hands C:

          • pain42

            and no matter what they actually did with the card it would be a disappointment on one level or another, due to the overwhelming magnitude of power that Urza was supposed to have.

          • Kameenook

            Unless, say, the printed card actually had an overwhelming magnitude of power. Just ask Dr. Storm Crow about it, he knows firsthand.

          • Dr. Burn Crow

            I was summoned? My thought is eventually they will enemy colored edh walkers. Urza would be prime for a UR artifacts deck.

          • Kahai

            I think this would work:

          • Melkiyad

            More text than the bible xD

          • niz-mizzet

            I figured wizards would do something like that I really want wizards to be printed

          • Anonymous

            Maybe they do another time-travel thing with Karn to figure out what happened with Mirrodin, or figure out the start of the Phyrexian plague which involves him going back in time to meet Urza and Yawgmoth??? That would be cool.

  • Ryū

    Completely off topic, but since this is the last core set, and the other core sets were mainly focused on Shandalar, I want amphin/salamander to become an actual tribe. Maybe blue/green evasive attackers, with some neat tricks.

    • Matt Wasser

      It is possible that Shandalar will be one of the planes hat we’ll see in this set.

      • Ryū

        True, but I wouldn’t expect any new fancy tribes in it.

        • Abyss King

          Maybe in a future story because on the flavor texts of two amphin cards it says that they are ready for war with the surface people so that in itself would interesting story in my opinion.

    • Kameenook

      I don’t think it’s completely off topic, I think it’s actually fairly relevant.

  • pain42

    boredom and impatience getting the better of me once again, tossing out some theories for the other walkers…

    • Melkiyad

      Both are pretty bad and unplayable in constructed.
      Remember, the biggest weakness these PWs have is that they can be killed with creature removal as well as damage… their planeswalker sides should be quite powerful.
      Both are better untransformed. Gideon can’t really be transformed unless you run him in a boros deck while jace is the worst one yet. Please no more mill.
      I do like the bonus transform effect though.

      • j j

        y would they give lillieana and gideon both creature dies transformation gideons white so im thinking one of two thing either life gain effect or if you control more creatures then your opponet flip it.

        • pain42

          i gave him the creature death transformation because the background i read for him said that he sparked after his squad/platoon on theros was slaughtered, with gideon as the only survivor due to igniting and planeswalking to bant

  • j j

    so duel deck ideas sorin vs. sarkah a fight for ugins loyalty who is the more faithful.

    • logan

      any other ideas

      • Imalwaysangry

        Ugin vs Narset. Battle of the $30 Planeswalkers

    • Jazzyboy1

      Sorin vs Ugin; Ugin stomps on the little vampire after he just tried to hate on Ugin’s beloved Nahiri.

    • wink

      ugin vs. karn colorless showdown

      • Kameenook

        Oooh, except then they’re releasing two very expensive super awesome planeswalkers. I’ll buy 10.

    • Captain Sunshine

      Garuuk vs Nissa. who is the true green planeswalker now?

  • Imalwaysangry

    Am I the only one who isn’t looking forward to the paradox of making new copies of old planeswalkers from before their first versions? Flavor-wise, Origins Jace should be weaker than Lorwyn Jace, right?

    It just seems like they’re either going to make PW’s that don’t make sense with the timeline/how they’ve been progressing PW’s up until now or they’ll make PW’s that are almost too weak to play with.

    • Ryx

      It doesn’t seem paradoxical, while they won’t be as powerful as their better versions, they will most likely be more supportive walkers with low cmc. You really couldn’t build a deck around them but they could still be standard usable, if the new Liliana is anything to go by.

      • SirMannyOrtiz

        It is a little odd that new Lily isn’t ridiculously broken since she was premending. But it also makes sense design-wise, as you have to balance the powers of each ‘walker. So the argument could be made for both sides, imo.

        • Melissa Juice

          Really, I think the entire Mending thing is more of a lore redux/restart than something to be worried too much about. R&D (rightly) found classic planeswalkers impossible to make cards from, so they forcibly changed the lore. The less said about the Mending, the better, if you see what I mean.

          • SirMannyOrtiz

            Fair enough.

    • Jazzyboy1

      I think the Planeswalker faces will be fairly weak but hopefully the others will have powerful abilities that trigger after they flip like Liliana’s zombie.

      And this Liliana’s ultimate is really powerful if you can get to it and still fits the flavour. Because she’s low cost, you can get to it before Liliana Vess’s ultimate and it relies less on creatures already being in graveyards.
      E: And it does fit the flavour because while her later form returns every creature from graveyards in one go, which would take immense power, this Liliana returns creatures one at a time as they die.(her emblem triggers when each creature dies so we can assume she starts the ritual then and finishes during the end step :P)

      • Kameenook

        I hope Jace flips and counters, just because it’d be unique.

    • pain42

      you also have to remember that they start in creature form, which makes them inherenly weaker right of the bat. as far as their walker forms go, while i’m not 100% about the lore surrounding the moment of a walkers’ spark ignition, i always imagine that the moment of ignition is more like a bomb going off than the comparable continuously burning flame of a walker who has already made it through their sparks’ ignition. keeping that in mind one could argue that if the planeswalker flip-sides are meant to represent the five walkers immediately after they ignite their planeswalking abilities that said, they could actually be quite a bit stronger than their original base forms, riding on the high of their newfound powers.

      • Imalwaysangry

        Great point. Didn’t think of it that way.

    • Melissa Juice

      Seems a bit nitpicky.
      The legend–>planeswalker thing is just a cool way of showing a transformation. The trick is to enjoy the lore without getting hung up on details.

  • Scott Mc clean

    If they’re doing background/origin stories, I wonder if we’re going to get Kallist and the Mana Blade from Agents of Artifice. That would be cool.

    • Melissa Juice

      I believe they’re only doing stories for the core 5 planeswalkers at the moment.

      • Ryū

        I’d like to see Jace’s teacher, and the man that gave Liliana the false cure, since I recall him showing up a second time in the web comics, if I’m not mistaken.

  • Captain Sunshine

    Luke Skywalker is in this set guys so it MUST be cool.

    • The Face

      The front one is Luke the big one in the back is radio-active Justin Beiber.

      • Anntar

        Its jace the mindsculpter

        • Captain Sunshine

          Silly goose its obviously Luke Skywalker

          • Sherlock

            Luke Skywalker is from StarWars you dope.

          • Kameenook

            Sherlock Holmes is not from MTG. Get outta here before I sic a storm crow on you.

          • Captain Sunshine

            Well Innastrad came out when twilight saga was popular, now that starwars episode 7 has hype…

          • Captain Sunshine

            But I’m really know its Jace he just looks like luke, but obviously people can’t take humor .

          • Captain Sunshine

            No, Luke Skywalker is from Mario Party 3!

  • Antares

    Anybody wonder how they’ll run the pre-releases for this set? It seems like “A set of promos” would be a little harder to pull in a core set. Maybe they’ll go with a set of promos relating to a planeswalker’s history? Something like “This group of promos relates to Gideon’s history, while these are for Jace’s”. I wonder, would they include the planeswalkers themselves as promos, or other mythics in the colors. I sure hope this time around we don’t get an “I can’t believe it’s not a Titan” cycle. I really want my mythic angel this time around.

    Seems like this will be a very interesting set. We’ll definitely see Theros (Gideon) and Zendikar (Nissa) in this set. However, as far as we know, Liliana’s, Chandra’s, and Jace’s home planes are unknown. Their first planeswalk is also unknown. Ooooh, this set is so exciting!

    Also, I’m hoping to get awesome angels, knights, and elves. They’ve been missing (at least in significant numbers) for far too long from Standard.

    • pain42

      i mean, it hasn’t been that long since there were large amounts of angels, but i’ll definitely give it to you that there needs to be some elves and knights going on.

      • Antares

        Never played through AVR. Plus, Avacyn restored didn’t have anywhere near as many, or as varied, angels as DTK did dragons. Plus, when was the last time we had a constructed playable angel?

        PS. They are also my favorite creature type. It bugs me that we ALWAYS get Krakens/Sphinxes, Hydras, Dragons, Demons. . . but Angels can be absent for 2 full blocks. We only had angels in M15, and all of them were limited only cards. :P

        • pain42

          i mean that still means that they were there though…

          a lot of what goes into what cards go into a set has a lot to do with what plane the set occurs on and honestly angels don’t really feel like a creature that is supposed to be on either theros or on tarkir. and standard probably won’t be without them for too much longer in any event, since we’re headed back to Zendikar in the fall, which is the home plane of two of the most powerful angels ever printed…

          • Antares

            Which I am very happy about.

            I just feel that it’s slightly unfair that a lot of the other Big Bads gets to be in every set, regardless of how much sense it makes (Dragons are not Gothic Horror or Greek mythology, for example), but angels get cut. It’s a pet peeve, I’ll admit. :)
            Right now White does not have its Iconic Big Bad (angels) at mythic in Standard. As opposed to Dragons, Demons, Hydras, Sphinxes.

            PS. I’m very much hoping to seer those two angels reprinted (Modern Masters 2/FtV: Angels, etc), or equally powerful angels.

          • pain42

            I mean, they do though, there are angels available to play in standard. they’re just not really constructed playable (excepted maybe Resolute Archangel in certain control lists). so they’re there, just they’re not very good atm. So it’s less that they’ve been forgotten and more that white got most of it’s power toys through other cards than angels, either with only white (secure the wastes, monastery mentor), or with other colors attached (siege rhino, jeskai ascendancy, and dragonlord ojutai ) to name a few.

            additionally, WotC would already have known for a while that it was going to be releasing a block that was going to include an insane amount of beefy fliers, so from a developmental perspective thats also probably part of the reason that there weren’t really any playable angels in standard currently.

            in addition to that you are getting FTV: Angels coming up in the not too distant future, which will probably easily make up for that absence of angels in standard by throwing out some pretty solid reprints.

          • Antares

            I am very wary of FtV Angels. I can’t see them doing the right thing and putting Linvala, Iona, and Avacyn in the set.

            PS. Yeah. Like I said, it’s just a pet peeve. I really like Dragons too, and now I am getting several that are awesome in “Not Red”. It’ll be interesting to see if they make dragons outside of Red in the future (without going out of their way to make excuses in the Block).

            PPS. I just REALLY wish they’d done something other than a darn BIRD as White’s mythic in Khans. That was just . . . WHY?!

          • pain42

            well, wingmate roc was a flavor thing, since the mardu used the large rocs found on tarkir for hunting. and yeah, i doubt we’ll see all three of those angels. My bets that we’ll see aurelia, one of the akromas, angel of despair, luminous angel, iona or linvala, avacyn,gisela, bruna, sigaurda, razia, and a few others that are escaping me, and plausibly luminarch ascension as well

    • Matt Wasser

      Where does it say that Gideon is from Theros? I looked up his lore, but didn’t find anything saying that he’s from Theros.

      • nox

        in pax east wizards showed a screenshot from the origins equlivent of duels of the planeswalkers that had a picture of young Gideon and said that he was from akros, theros

    • Kameenook

      I like your way of organizing the prerelease promos, but I imagine they will just slap one for each color, and that’s what you get.

    • Scott Mc clean

      Actually, Chandra’s ignited when she accidentally used her fire to burn her village down, some soldiers stopped her from saving her family, and they were about to behead her. She exploded into a gigantic fireball, then planeswalked.

      Jace’s spark ignited without him even knowing, and his master hid it from him.

  • Machaka

    And I said to myself…i hope there will be Ajani. I need a great white cleric! Hope, it won’t be Gideon…and tada! Another stupid soldier card. There is already enough soldiers, we need more clerics!!

    • Steak Sauce

      What does Ajani have to do with clerics?

      • Machaka

        He was a healer, because his leonin family was racist for his white color, and stand aside of fighting groups and helped them as healer. Then, after a little revenge hunting, he was traveling trough multiverse and healed so many persons (mostly Elspeth). The latest story – journey into nyx – he was helping Elspeth by healing her and powering her. So, what type would you give him? A warrior?

        • Ryx

          Yeah but would a cleric wield a double head ax? clerics and healers are different. Clerics are peaceful and typically don’t fight, (explains why most cleric creatures have low power and high toughness.) Healers use magic but can still be aggressive, like frontline medic in RTR. Ajani is clearly a heal but too aggressive to be a cleric, (clerics tend to not assist in the killing of a god) so he would be classified as a soldier or warrior.

          • ashton

            i want to see a pre-spark Elspeth

          • Abyss King

            As cool as that would be, she was like 10 (or something around that age) when her spark ignited so I would be very interested to see how her legendary card would work.

          • cement dorado

            waht if her effect is passive? She just gives +5 +5 to soldiers… cux they wanna protect a lil girl. lolz.

          • DRACHIR

            In that case look at the Knight of the Reliquary :)

          • Machaka

            Sir, you are here greatly mistaken here! I suppose, what you would like to say is the opposite of what you said. Just look at the clerics cards! If a creature is a healer, it is defensive (high toughness, life gain, protection, etc.) But cleric type just shows you, that they are working for some church, divine or holy law, but their ways can be different – fighting, protecting, executing…In Innistrad, there was a lot of fighting clerics, or Undead slayer, Priest of Urabrask, Geist of saint Traft, Exava, rakdos blood witch, Kaalia and others..

          • Ryx

            Yeah your right, my mistake.( I’m still kinda new to magic, I have only played since Born of the Gods and didn’t know alot about Innistard since I only play standard) I was also kinda being biased, looking at the clerics from m15 and. Actually looking into it, Ajaini is stated as a healer but his abilities don’t really seem to match that description. Ajaini’s power is to call upon the essence of a person’s soul to empower them. So he really isn’t a cleric since he doesn’t use his power to directly attack his opponents(unless you count Ajani Vengent’s abilities as cannon) but he isn’t really a healer because he doesn’t really prevent damage(unless you count Ajani Steadfast’s ultimate) as much as he empowers his allies to fight more, by giving vigilance, first strike, and +1/+1 counters. It seems(to me at least) that Ajaini’s powers resemble hieromancy that gideon uses to rally his allies but that is just mt two cents on this discussion.

          • Ashenmoor

            he is more like a Paladin tbh

    • Ryanthelion42

      They already said it will be Jace, Chandra, Liliana, Gideon, and Nissa

  • DJHak

    What they need to do is some reboots of old popular cards. Kind of like they did with invisibility in M15.

  • dendus

    When lilly ults you get the emblem. When tokens die do they come back to the field? ??

    • Jazzyboy1

      I would assume not because they cease existing when they die and go to the graveyard, but I might be wrong.

      • pain42

        nope, you are correct, when a token leaves the battlefield for any reason it ceases to exist

    • Tarzan

      A token can go into the graveyard and trigger “goes into the graveyard” abilities, but the ruling is -if a token changes zones it cannot change zones again-. It briefly stays in the graveyard for a moment and gets exiled immediately.

      • Jazzyboy1

        As far as I know(I’m pretty sure I’m right), it doesn’t even get exiled. Exile is a real zone. Tokens just cease existing entirely when they leave the battlefield. Being ‘exiled’ would imply that they go to another zone, but they don’t.

        That they cease existing is probably what you meant though xD

        • wwww

          No, they can go to another zone, but they will cease to exist after they do so. Check the comprehensive rule.

          “110.5f A token that’s phased out, or that’s in a zone other than
          the battlefield, ceases to exist. This is a state-based action; see rule
          704. (Note that if a token changes zones, applicable triggered
          abilities will trigger before the token ceases to exist.)”

          • Jazzyboy1

            Oh, I guess I still misphrased. Yes, I read the comprehensive rule just before I made my comment but I misphrased. I should have said ‘tokens just cease existing entirely when they go to a zone other than the battlefield’, as in, a moment afterwards.

            I was actually just trying to correct the mention of ‘exiling’ but I guess I made a mistake of my own in the attempt xD

  • niz-mizzet

    anybody else think young jace’s anatomy looks a little……off I don’t know maybe its just me

    • Drachir

      yes, the scarf makes it hard to see what’s actually wrong with it, but his upper body or neck is too short. his right arm does look crippled too..
      i hope they change the art – not only for these reasons :)

      • niz-mizzet

        I don’t think they need to change it entirely just tweek it alittle and bam everythings good

        • DRACHIR

          Yeah, but i would like to see another side of an even younger Jace then they pictured here. Maybe a 8-10 year old Jace sitting on the bench of a cobble stone market place with big old oak trees, eyes closed and enjoying the warm sun on his face. Around him stressed people trade and scream etc and he has just a faint smile on his face, because he is amused by reading the minds of those surrounding him.
          The mind reading could be depicted by some nearly invisible strings that link his mind to the ignorant minds of others. This would be a powerful picture like little Lily walking down the stairs and playing with her hair ^^

          The quality of the art on mtg got so much better since its beginning, but we still see too many of these “I raise my sword to the sky!” and “I run/swim/fly like hell!” artworks. But maybe it is just that i am just getting picky… i saw these images with hundreds of characters already – i want new ideas! That’s all :D

          • niz-mizzet

            that would be pretty cool you should draw it or commision someone on deviantart to make it

          • DRACHIR

            Maybe I will give it a try when I have more freetime. If it ever happens Deviantart is the portal to world.

    • Dwight Schrute

      I really like the art, I just think his thumb is opened up too far from the rest of his fingers.

      • Chrono_Knight

        My thumb goes that far from the rest of my fingers… Conclusion: I am Jace.

    • Captain Sunshine

      He looks like Luke Skywalker

      • niz-mizzet

        eh alittle

  • Fishe

    There are like 14,000 cards printed, and not a single one of them is a legendary phoenix. I feel cheated.

    • kasigah

      There are also no legendary wolves. I feel your pain.

      • pain42

        Strictly speaking your actually incorrect on the bit about the legendary wolves, as Tolsimir Wolfblood makes a legendary wolf named Voja. But there aren’t any legendary wolves that could be a commander, which i’m guessing is the issue.

        • kasigah

          Yes. Sorry for any ambiguity. I was referring to cards proper, not tokens.

          • Hedronal

            There are no legendary werewolves, or transform cards that can be used as commanders either. The latter is changed with the new planeswalkers, but the Innistrad werewolf tribe should have a leader.

          • kiddrangon

            I would DIE in we get a werewolf flip legendary creature!!! I would build so many decks around it and actually make a 60 card werewolf again! Which I loved. Everyone says they suck but idc. To me, werewolves what got me into the game.

          • kasigah

            If memory serves, Wizards has left the option open; they simply chose not to do it during Innistrad

          • kiddrangon

            I really hope they make one!

          • Imalwaysangry

            MR has said that’s his biggest regret from Innistrad. If we go back I’d bet my collection that we’d have at least one.

          • kiddrangon

            lol. Oh, I really wish we go back then and soon! XD

          • Hedronal

            If their trigger had been something less wordy, and less guaranteed for your opponent to undo, they might have worked better. A legendary werewolf (transform (not flip)) creature would have rounded out Innistrad for me, as would a legendary human in GW for a legend cycle. That said, tribal blocks like Innistrad are usually used as a break from the normal pentagon-symmetry, which is good to have. A mono-colored werewolf legend would have sufficed just as well as one in RG.

          • kiddrangon

            I will agree with the GW Legendary Human but the Legendary Werewolf has to be RG or it won’t fit. Vampires got BR, Humans GW, Zombies UB and Werewolves RG.

            If the legendary Werewolf were just mono, it wouldn’t fit well in my opinion.

          • Hedronal

            I share the opinion that a monocolored werewolf legend wouldn’t fit well, or at least as well as a RG one, but I’d still prefer monocolor to nonexistent enough to accept it, given an okay-grade reason for it to not be multicolor.

      • Abyss King

        Or legendary fish. Come on WOTC, YOU CAN DO IT!!!

      • Captain Sunshine

        I know LEGENDARY GOAT!

    • Imalwaysangry

      Fawkes or get out of my face WotC

    • Ryū

      There is a legendary griffin though. #ConsolationPrize

    • niz-mizzet

      or a good legendary minotaur (mogis doesn’t count)

    • cement dorado

      legendary badger and legendary bear are a must

  • shoopdawhoop

    my personal speculation on what the non-pw side of each one will do

    chandra:2/1 {tap} chandra deals 1 damage to target creature or player, whenever chandra dies, exile her and return her to the field flipped
    gideon:3/2 vigilance, if a creature dealt damage by gideon would die, exile gideon and return him to the field flipped
    jace:2/2 {tap?} or {3?} draw a card, if you drew 3 or more cards this turn, exile jace and return him to the field flipped
    nissa: 2/2 {tap} untap target land, if 3 or more creatures came into play under your control this turn, exile nissa and return her flipped

    • Imalwaysangry

      Not bad. Are you guessing at Gideon killing something and gaining his spark or is that somewhere I haven’t seen (highly likely)

    • Miguel Perez

      How about Sarkhan. Is he a part of the original PW’s?

      • Melissa Juice

        No, Sarkhan was not one of the first PW printings.

      • kasigah

        No. The original five are:
        Ajani
        Jace
        Liliana
        Chandra
        Garruk

        • i’maguest

          yeah but nissa is going to be the green walker in this set, not garruk…. sadly….

          • SirMannyOrtiz

            Gideon is also taking Ajani’s place. I believe this is due to both Ajani and Garruk adopting a new color, green and black respectively. Core sets like to deal with monocolored walkers.

          • Cthulu

            No, the reason is that we already know the origin of those pws. And before you say “we know LilianaLiliana’s origin too”, so lemme inform you that we have no knowledge about the family, the plane she came from, or much else for that matter.

          • SirMannyOrtiz

            No one said anything about knowing Lilly’s origin, not sure where you got that.

          • Cthulu

            Well, we got the sort of story, but no info about anything else, is what I mean.

          • Phil Bowles

            Does Garruk have an origin story? I think there’s a very vague outline, but he hasn’t been part of any storyline yet told on the cards (comics etc. don’t count because those can still form the basis of cards if the stories haven’t been explored in a set).

      • Hedronal

        As others have noted, Sarkhan is not one of the original printing of planeswalkers, who are known as the “Lorwyn Five”, as there were five of them, printed in the set Lorwyn.

        Also, Origins is not about the Lorwyn Five, rather the current mono-color five. Nissa is in instead of Garruk because he was relevant to the plot recently already, and in a non-monocolor way. Gideon is in instead of Ajani even though Ajani did return to mono-color in the story after the main events of Theros block, both Ajani was relevant more recently (with three of him in standard at once, even), and because the story already covered Ajani’s origin story (the first one covered with printed cards).

        • Phil Bowles

          I think Ajani’s out mainly because Alara was basically his origin story, and they seem to be following a pattern of using a different PW as the focal character (even if they turn up as supporting characters in other stories) in each block (except Venser, who was the main protagonist in both Time Spiral and Scars of Mirrodin). Ajani (Alara), Nissa (Zendikar), Sorin (Innistrad), Elspeth (Theros), Jace (Ravnica) and Sarkhan (Tarkir) have all been focal characters – Gideon, Liliana and Chandra (and Garruk, of the original five) have not, although Liliana has been a supporting character. Chandra and Jace were involved in the backstory to Zendikar, but weren’t part of the actual block’s plot. Battle for Zendikar seems to be focusing on Gideon rather than Nissa as the main protagonist, continuing the pattern.

          • Hedronal

            That much seems accurate, although Garruk did get some semi-relevant story between Innistrad and M15.

  • jacejosujura

    If Liliana’s brother doesn’t get a card, I am going to scream.

    • Ryū

      He’s essentially supposed to be the zombie that Liliana creates when she transforms on her new card. The man who gave her the false cure that turned him into a zombie would be more likely, as he shows up again later in her travels as well.

      • Scott Mc clean

        Actually, i think that her brother was older than her, and that he got sent to oblivion after Liliana got tricked into giving him this potion. He then cursed her, saying that if she ever died, she would follow her into oblivion, which is why she sought immortality. This was in the comics that Magic released.

        • ver

          actually his brother becomes a 2/2 zombie and died in battle

        • jacejosujura

          It says also in the comics (The Raven’s Eye) that she wanted to avenge him, she still loved him, and she missed him. That’s why I think he’s more likely than the Raven Man. And I don’t think the Raven Man turned Josu into a zombie, the cure drove him insane and Lili was banished from the kingdom, grew quite old and sought immortality.

    • Melissa Juice

      It’s a kid. Why on earth would a little kid need a card?

      • jacejosujura

        Josu was older than her. That’s why she chased after the raven man, to avenge Josu, who was the only person she loved, before Jace.

        • Melissa Juice

          I still don’t see your point. Why does this person need a card?

          • jacejosujura

            Because the set is supposed to be about the walker’s origin. He very obviously shaped her into the way that she is? The same way tat Kallist Rhoka should get a card in this set because he was a VERY VERY VERY important person to Jace Beleren. Possibly Brannon for Chandra? etc, etc.

          • Melissa Juice

            Eh. I don’t think all characters need cards. Especially if they have nothing to do with combat.

          • Brock

            They don’t need a card. The only reason they’re important to the origin is because something happened to them which caused the spark to ignite (Liliana’s brother dies, spark ignites) apart from that they’re not needed for the story

    • ver

      liliana’s brother is a black zombie 2/2 creature token.

  • Dustin Weeks

    I hope we get more interesting flip cards. I honestly really loved the transform mechanic (elbrus, the binding blade is one of my favorite commander equips). But i do really hope they expand upon this past the flipwalkers.

    • Guest

      I highly doubt they are going to go through the trouble of printing 2-sided cards just for a cycle of mythics.

      Plus it’d kinda be a dead giveaway in a draft if the only flip cards are planeswalkers.

  • Abyss King

    #reprintblacklotus2k15

    • Sorter

      #banpowernine2k15

      • Abyss King

        Whats wrong with those cards???

        • Sorter

          Because they (primarily moxes and lotus) create a barrier to entry to vintage. And IMO a reserve list destroys the game by prioritizing collectors over players, which, first, wizards proves they don’t know jack about business and profits and second it is utterly unhealthy for ANY game.

          • Imalwaysangry

            For clarity’s sake, you’re saying WotC doesn’t know anything about business/profit or they do, bc they’ve banned these cards?

          • Sorter

            Was referring to the reserve list. It’s existence is bad for the game. Totally unhealthy. And p9 ain’t banned, which is what I am saying they should do. Primarily the artifacts which comprise the majority of that power. Truthfully I do see a trend where vintage players are using less of the power cards (black lotus, 1-2 moxes and recall seems to be the trend) which is a good thing. To me they are just a crutch.

          • Melissa Juice

            Agreed.

          • Dont like to be anonymous but

            Normally I try to be polite ,but to hell with it, I can believe how stupid this post it. Maybe the reserved list is a bit for the collector. But also so these cards who are way to powerful to be ever reprinted. Wotc has clearly stated that they don’t give the old formats any attention (except for commander if you count that one as a old format). Their new focus is LARGELY modern and standard. Secondly , have you ever thought on the chaos that reprinting the p9 whould bring, if you have an inch of intelligence you would know that this is would be bad ,very bad. Turn 1 kill , sold out booster box, greedy stores bleeding their customers dry etc..
            I m sorry but the reserve list is A VERY GOOD THING FOR THE GAME.
            And I pretty sure you are just greedy and would like a 1000 $ card without paing its worth.

          • Abyss King

            #reprintblacklotus2k15

          • Abyss King

            It was a joke and I honestly don’t think that those cards are really that good. My force of wills will blow your stupid black lotus and moxes right out of the water. Shatter and the mutitudes of other artifact destroying cards just renders them useless.

          • sn1per

            Yeah, you know that mental misstep is played a lot more than force of will and is arguably a better card.

          • Sorter

            Wouldn’t call it a better card. They cater towards different types of threats. And just to comment towards the personal attack: I was saying to BAN them in vintage NOT reprint.

          • sn1per

            You know the point of vintage is being able to use all cards that have been printed and that the powerful cards are restricted. If a card is completely banned in vintage it is saying that the card is so overpowered that it should have never been printed in the first place.

          • SirMannyOrtiz

            Banning the power instead of reprinting them makes the game healthier how..?

          • SirMannyOrtiz

            lol if your argument is that the power nine can be countered, your argument is weak. Force is good, but you know what’s better? Forcing your Force to resolve my Lotus and win the game.

          • Ryx

            Just to add on to what you said, it makes complete sense to anyone who plays magic why the power 9 can’t be reprinted. why? Because it would make them worthless in value! Just look at thoughtseize and the fetches from previous sets. 50-80 dollars reduced to 10-20 dollars. Now look at that on the scale of Vintage/Legacy and collectors. Thousands of dollars of cards reduced to 30-40 percent of its original value, that would be horrible. Only certain cards could benefit from some re-printings, ie tarmogoyf and most of the cards from Modern Masters (a small, limited print run). And its not like Legacy/Vintage are for new or casual players, that fact is obvious. And think of the meta, with black lotus and time walk, it would be weird if someone didn’t find a turn one take infinite turns combo, which would remove any amount of fun or strategy in playing. Their is a reason that people said that you CAN have too much of a good thing.

          • nemo97

            Do you honestly think WotC worries about a cards after-market value? I highly doubt it. Their money is in the sale of new product.

          • Xinta

            well they tried to lower goyfs price and it backfired furthermore reprinting te reserved list ( excluding p9) would not necesary lower the price of the cards, because just for the fact some cards will become modern legal so its not clear that they will lose value. But for everyone else and even people that recently started collecting cards it will be much easier to get smth like a dual, because you have the chance to open one in a booster. Furthermore i guess most players would be very thankfull.

          • nemo97

            So, if a store isn’t supposed to make money selling MTG, then how are they supposed to keep the doors open for you to play in any sanctioned events?

            What is a “fair” price on MTG boosters and boxes in your opinion?

          • Dont like to be anonymous but

            When you charge double or triple the msrp your being unfair and just greedy. The msrp already have a profit margin for the shop and normal should be what we are getting charge, but Wotc never reinforced this and leave the sto themselves.
            The fair price is the m.s.r.p.

          • Joel

            WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!

          • Ari Woolf-Manas

            There was an extensive NPR bit (about 15 min) explaining how WotC made a VERY conscious effort to prevent the “bubble” that is any fad-game from bursting, as they just saw happen with Beanie Babies. The after market price (which wizards does care about) were getting to be near beanie baby levels, preventing new players from entering the tournaments or even buying the card that were out (Alpha/Beta). WotC decided to make new cards at set intervals, which wouldn’t have that old value that collectors wanted, and they ensured that those older cards wouldn’t be reprinted (Reserved List) so that older collecters would still maintain value. By creating the reserve list, along with reprinting cards fairly often, they are guaranteeing for themselves that prices of packs remains fairly constant and affordable to veterans and neophytes alike, while also serving to increase the value of those ancient cards that never seeing print again.

    • Melissa Juice

      lol

      No.

    • ver

      maybe i believe that forever exist than believing that black lotus will be reprinted #hugot!

  • Magical
    • Melissa Juice

      LOVE that card.

  • Guest

    We could see the Raven Man. He would be cool.

    • Ryx

      Here is my weird idea,

      Raven Man, Silent Observer
      1WB
      1/3 Deathtouch
      When Raven Man enters the battlefield, you may haunt target creature you control. If Raven Man would leave the field and you control the haunted creature, instead exile it and return it to the battlefield under your control at the beginning of the end step.

      • Shane Betz

        I don’t think they’re bringing Haunt back dude.

        • Ryx

          Well no, I don’t expect them to reprint haunt but a haunt style effect, like soul bound or something :l

          • BEARPUNCH

            They could have reprinted Haunt in the Inastrad set, but they didn’t. I don’t know but I think it would have fit pretty well, maybe if they go back.

          • Melissa Juice

            Haunt is clunky mechanically and not many people liked it. It will likely never return as a mechanic.

      • Ryū

        Haunt isn’t likely, but I like where you’re going with it. The man is like a ghost who simply appears and disappears in a swarm or “unkindness” of ravens, so it would be interesting to perhaps tie him in with another creature card, i.e. a black raven or unkindness of them.

    • Gilligan Isle

      don’t be silly, that would make you Raven Mad! :D

  • karson

    I heard that they are reprinting damnation does any know if that is true

    • Melissa Juice

      Extremely unlikely. Don’t believe what you hear, buddy.

      • Steaker96

        there is a reprint as a judge promo

        • Melissa Juice

          Well, that’s nice.

  • Supernose

    WHEN DO WE GET MORE SPOILERS?

    • Ryx

      Probably near the end of June.

      • Sorter

        Not much of a spoiler section if all we get is 1 card till June end and the rest all at once.

        • Ray Becker

          As soon as a new set is unveiled, this site sets up a page for it. The section is more of a place holder and a fun place for chatter and speculation. This section has 100% more cards revealed than BFZ.

        • stigarose

          it’s a great spoiler, it shows that all the planeswalkers in the set will be two sided, their legendary counterpart that turns into the “adult” planeswalker, we get to see the planeswalkers as legendary creatures, pretty awesome idea!

  • Abyss King

    #reprintblacklotus2k15

    • sn1per

      Yeah, they will reprint black lotus as soon as they bring ante back into standard :l

      • Abyss King

        Bringing ante back into standard would be such a great idea, you have no clue. It would only make the game illegal in certain countries because gambling is illegal in said counties. Black lotus is just a card. Ante is gambling. Its not the same so kys

        • sn1per

          yeah a 400 dollar card at it’s cheapest form so when it gets put up for ante against a cheap mono red deck where the most expensive card is eidolon of the great revel, it seem like a bad idea. (and yes I am the kind of person to keep a stocked mono-red deck just to get other peoples cards and with the idea of paying five bucks to get a black lotus from winning one game, I am probably not the only one) :P

          • SirMannyOrtiz

            I love the way your mind is working right now.

        • Melissa Juice

          Ante was so incredibly stupid and bad for the game it was, wisely, immediately removed and never mentioned again. Nearly everyone would quit magic if it were part of the game.

          • Phil Bowles

            “Ante was so incredibly stupid and bad for the game it was, wisely, immediately removed and never mentioned again”. Replace the word “Ante” with “Prophecy” and the sentence still works.

          • Melissa Juice

            hehehe

  • Ambrose Schofield-mcglashan

    black lotus cannot be reprinted because it is on the reserve list

    • Ryx

      Trust me , just because it is on the reserve list, … that won’t stop people from complaining about reprinting it.

  • kasigah

    I know it’s still too soon, but I just want to see more cards as of this point. The story-based suspense is killing me!

  • Franklin

    Confirm Path of Exile plz.

    • It’s not in this set.

    • Nox

      It is the FNM promo for July

    • Antares

      As stated, promo for July. Likely in Modern Masters 2 (hopefully).

  • warren tame

    card like hero’s downfall would be nice. card like destory taget creaure or land for 3 mana that would be good and make it an inisted as well
    . love to see that.

    • sn1per

      Have you seen the U/B / Esper control list? Blue and Black have plenty of good removal right now. Also wizards can’t print cheap instant speed land destruction because control players would abuse it (what would be any better control then not allowing your opponents to be able to cast spell at all?). Just look at Fulminator Mage, a forty dollar card. Why? because it has :sacrifice this card ,destroy target nonbasic land.

    • Melissa Juice

      …huh?

  • Guy Geva

    Well, looks like we know how Liliana’s spark ignited:
    A friend/creature she treated/etc died, than she was angry and ignited her spark, and summoned him as a zombie.
    After that, whenever someone(that was close to her) died she returned him to life.

    • Antares

      O.o

      Uh. . . Liliana’s origin story is VERY well known. She was a healer at her family’s estate. Her brother fell severely ill, and she traveled to find a cure for him. Eventually, a being known as The Raven Man gave her a spell/potion/kajigger to cure her brother. The cure ended up reviving him as a zombie, at which point her spark ignited from the intense emotions this brought on. Liliana then decided that she did not want to age and die, so she went through various planes seeking out the strongest demons to grant her immortality. She chose 4 across various planes to promise her soul to, all the while becoming more powerful. Eventually, she acquired the Chain Veil, and decided she was powerful enough to “buy” her soul back. Since then, she has returned to the first of the 4 (and weakest) demons, Kothophet, and killed him. Shortly after, she traveled to Innistrad to deal with Griselbrand, and killed him using the Veil’s power (though it was VERY difficult, even with the Veil’s power). We don’t know where she will go next, and who the next demon is.

      On that note, can you imagine Griselbrand reprint in Origins for Liliana? I mean, it’s more likely we’ll see a rare version of him like we did for Ob Nixilis, but it’d be kinda awesome, no?

      • Guy Geva

        Oh, I didn’t know the story was known; I don’t know mtg story very well, and becouse I found Ajani’s story very clearly, I thought that only the planeswalkers wich their story isn’t known are the once to be presented in Origins.

        And yes, it will be cool, but I really think that if we already know a plansewalker’s past, he’ll have some story progress in origins. And I wander if will see other planeswalkers like Kiora of Ugin (althought we saw him in fate reforged, so we’ll probebly won’t hear him again in Origins).

        • Imalwaysangry

          I agree with your notion on progression, even though this is a look back. Maybe we meet a third demon?

          The only Planeswalkers in Origins will be the 5 transforming cards (Gideon, Jace, Liliana, Chandra, and Nissa).

          • Guy Geva

            Probably, but don’t forget that there is Gurruk transforming card, too(not an igniting, but still)
            And speaking of wich: Did liliana curse Gurruk in magic 2015? Becouse I saw somthing like that in the comics.

          • Imalwaysangry

            Liliana cursed him back in 2009 approximately. I use that as the date, bc of the Liliana vs Garruk duel decks.

            I remember Garruk’s transforming card quite well (it basically won me all my games at the pre-release), but there will only be the five planeswalkers mentioned per WotC.

          • Amy Louise

            Liliana cursed Garruk using the Chain Veil just prior to Innistrad (2011), and Garruk became the Veil-Cursed. Once he left Innistrad he got worse, losing much of his prior connection to nature, and became “Apex Predator.”

  • The Pudge

    It’s silly to even think about it, but one way to reprint
    the power nine and abolish that reserved list, is for MTG to lose its entire
    support and fan base. There is a possibility that WOTC, one way or another,
    will return back to its roots. Life calls it “cycle”. MTG or WOTC even creating
    cycle cards and they know it. No matter how WOTC are doing their best to slow
    down the game pace by increasing the CC to 3 or 4 to have a decent competitive
    standard deck, some day it will return back to 1 or 2 CC. I’ve been always
    discussing with my friends from high school when we started playing MTG 20 yrs
    ago and always wondered if we will ever experience at some point that the
    current meta’s average CC would be 5 or more. Magic will die a slow death. And
    it will return back, to its roots to rise like a phoenix.

    • Sorter

      Amen to that! That’s why Standard is a pure money dump. If you want to invest your money and not waste it Eternal is where it’s at. For me as such a player standard is only a means of progression where new cards come out and I only take the cream of the crop. To be fair Magic does have some recent Eternal playable cards. Mental Misstep for instance. And aside from the increased cc on average the idea of creature beat down over spell tactics is also IMO bs.

      • sn1per

        yeah no, the modern deck I would want to build would cost me 600 hundred bucks. I’ll just stick with 50 buck mono red and play games that last more than three turns, thank you.

        • Sorter

          Yes true. And those cards you have invested in would lose value or at least playability as new things come out.

        • Phil Bowles

          If you’re playing mono-red in Standard and haven’t won by turn 3, you’re doing it wrong…

      • Phil Bowles

        That’s definitely a cheap approach. Cream of the Crop goes for a little over $1.

        • Sorter

          Lol really funny. You got me there. I was obviously referring to only getting the best card(s) from each new set.

    • Eno

      yeah and they will bring ante and horsemanship back, :L (rolls eyes sarcastically)

      • JP

        Why not Phasing, Banding, and Rampage also for that matter!?

    • Melissa Juice

      God, that sounds awful. I certainly hope not.

      Thankfully, that scenario is incredibly unlikely.

      • The Pudge

        What is the meta’s average CC right now? 3? 4? I remember it’s been like
        that since the Urza Block or right before it. I’m accustomed to playing 2
        or less before, until such time I had to embrace playing a 3 or 4 CC
        spell. I know a lot of you would dread the day that the least CC of a spell would be 5. It would be boring right?

        I don’t know how WOTC can keep this up, sometimes I don’t feel the balance. Other times, it’s absurd.
        But still fun to play with foes, friends and family.

        • Melissa Juice

          3-4 sounds about right.
          And average cc at 5 would be perfectly fine, if the game is appropriately balanced. It’s all a matter of design approach, really.
          As best I can tell, competitive play is incredibly balanced now, as compared to many eras in the past.

        • Giby86 .

          CC of spells has nothing to do with fun. Or if it has, it’s the other way round: Commander is by far the most fun, diverse and satisfying formats out there, and the average CC is what, 7?

    • Ryx

      Well if that happens, it would completely kill the appeal of draft and limited formats, and probably turn every other format into just turn 1-2 kills so it would just become into a dice rolling game, like legacy, not magic.

      • martyrX

        you have no clue regarding legacy.

    • Phil Bowles

      The ‘origins’ are the origins of the planeswalkers in the current setting, which don’t have any relation to Magic’s past. It may be an effort to bring in new players with a reboot of sorts, but if so the reboot starts from Time Spiral and its ‘neowalker’ storyline (or even Zendikar 1, the first story to introduce any of the protagonists of this set – as none were relevant to Lorwyn or Alara).

      Wizards deliberately varies the speed of its formats, but they generally try to avoid 1-2 cc formats. See Mark Rosewater’s article yesterday (“Phooey”) on the design limitations a 2cc format imposes – that’s in the specific case of a planned morph variant, but the same applies more generally.

      As for the reserved list, there’s no need to do anything about the Power 9 or most of the list, since those cards would never be reprinted anyway. To keep Legacy alive and expand its player base Wizards will at some point need to find a way to either remove the dual lands from the list, or to produce near-functional reprints that somehow can’t be used alongside the original duals (since if you have 4 Bayous and 4, say, Artifact Bayous, you’ll still be at an advantage over someone who just has the hypothetical artifact land version). But the duals aren’t especially high value cards by the standards of the valuable cards on the reserved list, and there isn’t the same mechanical need to remove cards like the Power 9 or Mishra’s Workshop from it. Legacy is an important format to support because there needs to be a competitive format that allows everyone who wants to to use their 10+ year old cards, since the ‘Legacy era’ was a very long part of Magic’s lifetime. Vintage was not, and it’s fine to leave it to the few who already have those cards.

      • lost_woof

        Wizards just needs to print a land that produces 1 colorless mana and has the passive ability that all 0cmc artifacts lose all activated abilities.

  • Imalwaysangry

    So, is this going to be 5 different stories happening in one set?

    I wonder if each color will be dedicated to it’s respective planeswalker or if there will be some crossing over (i.e. red cards related to Gideon, white cards related to Jace, etc.)

    I’d love to see some legends outside of the PW’s that aren’t necessarily creatures. Artifacts, equipment, and lands that are a part of each of the 5’s spark ignition.

    • nigahr

      Gideon is a white planeswalker and jace is a blue planeswalker… What the hell are you smoking?

      • Jewfro

        He said he wondered if there would be crossing over… Although, I will admit, his picture DOES look like he is stoned.

        • RyanTheLion42

          it actually looks more like Luke Skywalker

          • RyanTheMyanFlyinCryinLion43

            he isn’t talking about the Jace picture beanup

      • Imalwaysangry

        Yes, reading the entire post in context would help. But who has time to do that when there’s trolling to be done?

      • Matt Wasser

        JUst becouse Jace is a blue planeswalker does not mean that everyone and everything that dells with his origin is blue.

    • Phil Bowles

      I suspect there’ll be crossover. One good mechanical reason to take this ‘ten planes, most of which we’ve seen’ approach is simply to allow reprints from different settings (as is common in a core set) while tying them to the individual stories. It would be too limiting – as well as potentially unbalancing – if, say, green gets the lion’s share of Zendikar reprints, a strong block in which green was a strong colour, while white gets a bunch of Theros-block filler (as the colour was mostly poor in this block, save for a planeswalker we already know isn’t being reprinted). Also, what do you do about artifacts, lands, and any gold cards without crossover?

  • Legendary_Thopter

    There is a Chandra floating around, don’t know if its real or not. Anyone got input?

    • pain42

      If it’s the Flames of Kaladesh one, then the running theory is that it’s a very well made fake, although it’s certainly a good card. There are a bunch of reasons for this that have been discussed on another site, if you go and google chandra mtg origins card and click on the flip side one that shows up it should take you to the forum that discussed it

  • TacoBellHero

    Special planeswalker story line exclusive watermarks?
    I think the watermark theme is kinda cool.
    I also have a theory looking at the Planswalker 1st colors of the art and Lilianna Title help proves my theory
    I believe that each planswalker were born in an area where they opposed the natural mana there and where born different.
    Lilianna is a Black planeswalker, but before her spark she was a healer but was a heretic and was against it.
    Jace is showing signs that he came from a more naturalistic green area but was super smart
    Gideon is a white planeswalker from Theros but his whips are more fire based and i believe it could be a natural weapon his village uses
    Chandra was raised in an area where Pyromancy is forbidden or super bad and technoligy advances (if anyone ever read her backstory) i believe she was in an island village.
    Nissa the self titled protector of zendikar could have been raised in a dark region of zendikar cause she didn’t know what she was or her past as a half dryad plus her usual wears looks dark already

    • Imalwaysangry

      I like the originality of your hypothesis. It might be the case for Lillianna, Chandra, and even Gideon (bc I’m thinking he’s Akroan but even then he’d be white AND red instead of just red). I doubt it for the others, though only because Zendikar has no black elves, and I haven’t seen any of the naturalistic leanings in Jace you refer to.

      • TacoBellHero

        I mean just reading Chandra’s storys and noticing that she use some kind of technology every now and then.
        what im trying to say about zendikar is that Nissa have no clue on her past self or what she is, she recently discovered shes a dryad. it leads me to believe that Nissa was raised by people who have either adopted her (kidnapped) or kept her life a secret.
        Jace’s clothing on the art resembles nature survival tools, and by how smart he is, he most likely created his own tools

      • Joseph Bianchini

        Jace’s connections with nature in any form were almost non-existent until Return to Ravnica. In the story arc he has (which, by the way, is a great read) he fights against Ruric Thar and is able to win via tapping into the sympathy of the Gruul warriors watching, as his normal magic was ineffective on Thar. I think that possibly the most notable aside to nature, though, is his current “friendship”(?) with Garruk. After Garruk was corrupted by Liliana, Jace is the first to confront him. I believe that if anything, Jace’s encounters with Garruk and his time on both Zendikar AND Ravnica made him slowly realize the value of nature, which is suffice to say he probably did NOT come from such a background.

        ^^^As for Phil (TacoBellHero), I do agree with the fact that Jace has strong ties (initially) to Black mana due to his tumultuous early life and interactions between Lili and Tezzeret. This connection seems to have alleviated itself after all the good Jace does for Ravnica, as well as his connection to (insert forgotten name here) from Selesnya. One could assume that the White of that guild represents a change for the better whilst the Green symbolizes Jace’s newfound respect for the natural world. After assuming the role of the new Guildpact, I basically decided that Jace will remain a mono-blue walker for 3 reasons (just my opinion):
        1. Richard Garfield, creator of Magic, loves Blue, and Jace is the current embodiment of pure Blue.
        2. Though he has made a better life, the past still haunts Jace even though he now has a greater purpose. The ties to Black/White essentially cancel out in Jace’s case.
        3. In one of the early guides included with the pre-constructed decks in the Core Sets, I remember that Jace was said to “have to decide what to use his powers for”. Though he is ultimately doomed to a life of the good guy (again, Wizards), there will always be 2 groups of actual players: those who like Jace, and those who do not. I think that Jace’s “choice” should be what the players make it out to be. To me, anyway, Jace is not the mind mage, but more the guy who constantly has to choose his path for good or evil, to give in to the pain of his past or stick to what’s right, regardless of the strain.

        Anyway, that’s my input on Jace.

        P.S. – Still kinda disappointed that Liliana has chosen the path she has. Ironically it says she’s “not necessarily evil, just knows what she wants”, but I gotta say, turning Garruk into a Planeswalker-hating killer isn’t exactly what I call a good deed.

    • Phil Bowles

      It’s been mentioned in passing, I think in her planeswalker page, that Nissa has started secretly using black mana to fight the Eldrazi – it seems fairly clear that her background is fully green, though. Gideon is from Akros, which was the red-aligned city-state in Theros block, so that’s a plausible shift.

      I’ve had the sense that Jace is from a semi-black background (I’d have liked a new Planar Chaos set that examines alternate timelines for the planeswalker protagonists, and Jace could plausibly have gone black) – he effectively killed his original mentor, he sometimes seems ruthlessly ambitious, not to mention his relationship with Liliana. I can see his journey as one from ‘blue-black’ to ‘blue-white’ over time, with the Jace we’ve seen as a story character being in the fully blue middle ground.

  • Phil Bowles

    I proposed it for Dragons of Tarkir and was wrong, but the name is a bad fit for the setting. I think it’s realistic to think Bridge from Below could see a reprint in Origins, however. The same arguments apply as for Dragons: we’re in a format with a lot of graveyard love, including reanimation and milling (though without new support the latter will be much reduced without Satyr Wayfinder and to a lesser extent Commune with the Gods, however exploit targets the very cards you want put in the yard for Bridge), where the card would play very well – we also have possible preemptive hosers like Anafenza 1 and Mardu Woe-Reaper. We also have a lot of zombie love, and now Risen Executioner.

    Origins becomes particularly plausible because of the card’s name, which implies an underworld (especially one that spews out zombies). That’s inconsistent with most Magic settings, but is an extremely good fit for Theros. While the card obviously wasn’t in that block, this may be because (despite the milling available and the fact that it’s nominally an enchantment) it wasn’t a great thematic fit. Origins however marks a return to Theros, since it’s Gideon Jura’s home plane.

  • niz-mizzet

    does anybody else think we may end up with younger versions of legendary creatures I think that would be a cool bit of flavor for this block

    • The legendary creatures are the younger versions.

      • Imalwaysangry

        I think he’s talking about separate creatures from the PW’s

        • I know but the entire point of the set is that they are the younger versions already.

          • Imalwaysangry

            Right, but I don’t think he’s referring to the Planeswalkers at all. I think he’s talking about legendary creatures we have seen before in Zendikar and Theros. Their younger versions, not the Planeswalker younger versions.

          • niz-mizzet

            yes thats what I am talking about

    • Imalwaysangry

      Who did you have in mind? I’d love to see epic creatures like Iona, Wrexial, or Lorthos as younger versions from Zendikar. Brimaz, Daxos, and King Macar would be cool from Theros.

      • niz-mizzet

        exactly

      • Oneiricon

        And baby Eldrazi awwwww *-*

    • cement dorado

      lil baby Brimaz :)

      • Vizzerdrix

        Brimaz, Prince of oreskos

      • Tommy

        And he “just can’t wait to be king!”

        • cement dorado

          I would love the art to be Lion King esk XD

          • Joe GI

            my buddy got his rafiq of the many altered to be rafiqi from lion king with simba behind him.

    • Erion

      See Swordwise Centaur card, (I love the Elspeth child in there) I hope we have a block with cards like that. ¿Mabye a cycle of legendary creatures that was the masters of those planeswalkers?

      • Mario

        I don’t think this flavour text is about Elspeth. If I remember correctly, Theriad tells stories about various Champions who were granted big quests by Heliod. Elspeth is just one of many. Also, her personal story involves an early childhood on a plane plagued by Phyrexians. Theros doesn’t fit this description.

    • I need my Ewish Nown, Gwand Cenowbut.

      • niz-mizzet

        somebody quick give this man a medal and draw this

  • RyanTheLion42

    release some cards it is coming out in a month

    • It comes out in 2 months.

      • RyanTheLion42

        I know read june instead of july

    • Melissa Juice

      *Release
      *cards. It
      *month.

  • Joel

    I think they will probably release some spoilers when Modern Masters 2 cones out.

    • Joel

      Comes.
      Cones are those things that look funny when you run them over.

      • Joel

        Kind of like people.

        • niz-mizzet

          you win

          • Avatarlesshope

            He was the only one playing…

  • KranonV2

    2 months SOON!!

  • Looper

    I’m really interested to see what lands will be in this set, as the scrys and pains rotate out when Origins drops

    • Dave

      They rotate out in October when Battle for Zendikar hits shelves.

      • pain42

        i thought theros dropped out when origins hits?

        • Sorter

          It drops when BfZ comes out in October.

    • Looper

      Thanks for clearing that up guys. Having 8 blocks in standard for 3 months seems like a lot, though.

  • Jaden Parker

    I was thinking of purchasing my first booster box as this set. Does anyone think I should, or should I wait for Battle for Zendikar?

    • Patrick Blais Chauvin

      I prefer playing draft

    • Vizzerdrix

      this is supposed to be like a core set unless something super awesome comes out id wait for zendikar if you dont mind waiting. they also might do full art lands again

      • Brandon

        actually they said that awhile back that with this last core set, theres going to be alot of new cards printed unlike previous core sets. so it may be beneficial to buy one box of the set. and as far as the full art lands, unless they reprint the original ones from zendikar, they wont be doing full art lands this time around.

        • discodingo

          They will never do full art land again. The cry baby collectors would scream.

          • RyanTheLion42

            If they do another joke set then they are for sure doing full art lands

        • Vizzerdrix

          why not? its a good selling point every pack is more whorth while. my lgs will do packs at 3$ for 3 or more packs if a full art land is 1$ roughly then i need 2$ of value to break even. that could be a slightly playable rare and a decent uncommon and im happy and buying more packs. it could also get some players to return from about 5 years ago when the first zendikar took place. id return for full art lands seeing as they haven’t been done in so long. i used to buy all the zendikar i could find when i started in scars. theres definitley demand for full art lands you see it all the time

    • Jesper

      Normally, if you want cards to play in standard or modern, buying boxes is not the right approach. Unless you plan on drafting or otherwise play with the boosters as you crack them, it’s just cheaper to buy the singles you need. This applies to almost every set, and unless you really love gambling, you’re almost always better off just buying the singles. Once Battle for Zendikar will come out, and if they reprint the enemy-colored fetches (which I am almost sure they will) the prices on these fetches will drop enormously. Then would be the best time to pick up your zendikar fetchlands. The same goes for the Khans of Tarkir fetches, these will impossibly be reprinted in the next 5 years or so, so the prices now are as low as they are going to be for quite a while.

  • Jaden Parker

    I just thought of something. I’ve been wondering for a while why there’s no mana cost on Liliana, defiant necromancer. And if you look at Liliana, heretical healer, her ability says to return her to the battlefield transformed. Well maybe when she transforms, she transforms into a planeswalker, as if her spark ignited. Just a thought.

    • Vizzerdrix

      Yes its a double sided card like the werewolves or delver of secrets from dark ascension. a creature dies and liliana transforms it is exactly as you said it is to represent her activating her spark

      • Jaden Parker

        I wonder how sleeving will work for double sided cards then. I can’t imagine players would want to constantly have to take their mythic out of a sleeve. And if you don’t play with sleeves, then your opponent could obviously see you had a planeswalker.

        • José Matos

          They will probably have a checklist card to use instead like they had back in Innistrad

        • Vizzerdrix

          they had special cards in every pack of innistrad and dark ascension that was a checklist and had all the double faced cards and had a regular back and you could use that instead. theyll have to put these in packs and to limit it to 5 cards seems like a waste so they might do more dfcs. id use a penny sleeve and the check list card if you end up drafting a planeswalker in origins. in constructed you could double sleeve so its always sleeved or if you both know the card just turn it over as long you know its not a morph or manifest

    • This was said when they spoiled her.

      • Jaden Parker

        Oh. I didn’t know that.

  • Soren Szilver

    Is this set going to be modern legal?

    • Melissa Juice

      As the last Core Set, yes.

  • Disciple of Garruk

    I expect this to be a legend heavy set. Does anyone think we’ll see a gold card or two? How about dual lands?

    • MaNU_ZID

      Dual lands cannot be reprinted. talking about the legend heavy, this set could be awesome for Tiny Leaders. If they make all the PW 3 mana cost like liliana, that could be very sweet and we would have a larger variety of leaders :D

      • Disciple of Garruk

        Not original dual lands. Some new or classic form like filter or pain

  • Disciple of Garruk

    Setting aside personal planeswalker favorites who else feels that garruk should have been the green planeswalker? I feel garruk is the more important character to the mtg multiverse and we deserve to see his spark ignite. I really want to see his creature version and frankly he is a fan favorite and needs some orgin explantion, no one can agree on his home plane. I dought the “flip-walker” mechanic will return and I feel like we will never get the opportunity to see his creature version again. However it would be VERY cool to see a wide variety of our favorite planeswalkers get the chance to show us their pre-walker abilities in future sets.

    • Matt Wasser

      If this set does well, we might see more planeswalker origin stories.

      • Disciple of Garruk

        The reason I dought we’ll see any more origin stories is simply because sets take place in modern time. The only way I see origin stories returning is in a time themed set like fate reforged or timespiral.

        • cement dorado

          We don’t need an origins set to get more origin stories

        • Matt Wasser

          Instead of a new modern masters set, origins 2 could come out in between the regular sets.

    • Geofyzzix

      With the set next year being Battle for Zendikar, which is the plane Nissa is from, it makes a bit more sense for her story to be told this time over Garruk.

      • MaNU_ZID

        Also Gideon, He was on Zendikar on the story line, and he is from Theros, a set where we were not long ago. Chandra and Jace also. All the planeswalkers were on zendikar (not Liliana), so maybe we see them appear in Zendikar again, and hopefully Sorin (I like a lot Sorin’s lore). And Liliana is just so iconic in MTG that she had to appear and I cannot complain about that :D

    • Imalwaysangry

      I bet they’ll give us a look at some of the others down the line. Maybe once the stories pertaining to these five start to wrap up? Ajani, Tezzeret, Sorin, Garruk, and everyone is dying to know Tibalt’s origin

      • kasigah

        We know Tibalt’s though. He studied pain on Innistrad. Devils began coming around because of that. He was about to be arrested, pulled off a big (and painful) spell, and the pain fused him with a devil and ignited his spark.

        • Imalwaysangry

          I was just joking, bc everyone seems to hate him.

          • Jazzyboy1

            Which I don’t really get. Sure, his existing planeswalker card is godawful; but the character’s pretty cool and the concept behind his planeswalker card and his prebuilt deck is interesting.

            I’d personally be happy to see them try again at making him a planeswalker card.

            And Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded is actually okay in Madness decks I hear. I might build one myself and see.

          • Dr. Burn Crow

            I play Tibalt in my red artifact deck. He works decent enough, especially with Daretti to recycle stuff Tibalt throws out.

          • Imalwaysangry

            I actually run one in my Prossh Commander. He’s fine if there’s a lot of more dangerous stuff going on. If not he’s easy to get rid of

    • RyanTheLion42

      The reason you want garruk is because hes your favorite planeswalker, but he is dead, so he can’t be in here

      • Matt Wasser

        Where does it say that Garruk is dead? Last I knew he had a hadron stock in him, which slowed the curse, but I don’t remember wizards saying he is dead.

      • Disciple of Garruk

        First off garruk is NOT dead. Where r u getting your facts from? Second I already stated that I was setting personal favorites aside and gave a legitimate storyline reason. Please think before you post

    • MaNU_ZID

      I like also Elspeth better than gideon as a white planeswalker, but I dont care. Elspeth is “death” and I really want that other characters appear on the main scene of planeswalkers. I think for next editions even show other PW not allways liliana jace and chandra..

    • David Meyers

      But… but Garruk already has a flippy planeswalker card. Let the others have a turn.

  • Dr. Burn Crow

    I still wish this had been an evil planes walker core set. Each would focus on a darker aspect of the colors, and the “antagonist” would be a new Karn.

    • Vizzerdrix

      Jace the crowspeaker
      +1 until end of turn you may cast any number of storm crows you control from outside the game. if you do they come into play tapped and attacking the player or planeswalker of your choice
      0: Jace becomes a 1/2 blue bird with flying until the end of the turn of your choice.
      -2 search target players collection for any number of storm crows and add them to your collection

      • RyanTheLion42

        Ya, Probably not

        • Vizzerdrix

          I dont know makes sense to me. Blue needs to go back to printing powerful creatures like storm crow and why not in the form of a planeswalker and one with a big backing like jace

          • SomeDude

            No, that would be WAAAY to br0ken to work.

      • Ryx

        …or maybe something along the lines of…
        Jace, Adept Apprentice U1, 3 Loyalty
        +1 Tap or Untap target permanent
        0 Look at the top four cards of your library then rearrange them in any order, draw a card.
        -6 You get an emblem with: whenever an opponent casts their first spell per turn, counter it unless they pay 3.

    • RyanTheLion42

      where would karn come from, the phyxerians kind of killed him

      • Matt Wasser

        I thought that Karn’s spark was reignited when Venser transferred his spark to him, and Karn left to find a way to stop the phyxerians.

        • niz-mizzet

          yeah thats what happened and I want him back

      • Adam Fox

        death means nothing to mtg characters :p theres always some way to write them back into the script lol

      • Dr. Burn Crow

        He is actually not dead. Venser died giving Karn his heart to cleanse him of Phyrexian corruption.

    • cement dorado

      a cool duel deck would be karn v. ugin. karns is all artifacts while ugin is all colered.blah blah blah… phyrexia will be the main story sometime after some dumb set in between battle for zendikar

      • Disciple of Garruk

        Karn would not be against ugin. The r both good planeswalkers. They would stand against nicol bolas together

        • cement dorado

          Elspeth and kiora are both good and they fought. plus it would be interesting

          • sn1per

            Kiora tried to stop Elspeth from entering nyx but when Elspeth became aggressive, Kiora backed off.

          • cement dorado

            I know but they are both good guys. SO why can ugin and karn not fight? Asimpl em isunderstanding could make them fight. especially since the phyrexians will be coming back. SOON!!!

          • hcma

            Kiora would actually be true neutral or chaotic good.

          • cement dorado

            she is still a good guy nonetheless

          • Hedronal

            Not majorly. The duel decks aren’t canon to the plot. Kiora may have disagreed with Elspeth and Ajani, but they worked together for a short while, then went their separate ways.

          • cement dorado

            I know how it works. ive read their lore

  • niz-mizzet

    YAY SOMETHING !!!!!!!!!

  • Jazzyboy1

    I just want to see Gideon and Nissa. I mean, as long as they’re even slightly good, they’re going to be awesome in their relevant tribals. Unlike the original planeswalker cards, they’re actually affected by tribal synergy before they enter the field and while on the field as creatures. Assuming Gideon’s a soldier, he’ll be reduced by Ballyrush Banneret! And they’re buffed by the relevant lords while they’re creatures.

    Gideon can also be cheated out with Preeminent Captain.

    I personally don’t use the original planeswalker cards, because while they are powerful, they’re not powerful enough to stand on their own in a strong tribal deck. Synergy > Raw power.

    • Disciple of Garruk

      Original nissa was tribal gold. Elf crazy

  • Fakeromon .

    Since innistrad was such a fan-loved set I think wizards will get it on origins, probably as liliana’s first planeswalk since she needed a way to know about griselbrand when she needed him

    • Fakeromon .

      Same goes for kothophed and the remaining two so idk

  • Scion of the Dragons

    just help me on this. Shouldnt Ajani be dead? Sarkahn saved Ajani from a dragon on jund back in the day, and with sarkahn having gone back in time, virtually erasing his existance, shouldnt it erase the points he is in on other planes seeing how he he basically never existed? which means Ajani is dead, he wouldnt have been there to be the 3rd planeswalker needed to release the eldrazi. he has been crucial in many story elements, but yet with him changing the past of tarkir, he basically changed the events that lead to his birth and he only exist because he returned to the timeline.

    • globenstine

      he only reset the timeline on the plane of Tarkir. the timeline of other planes was completely unaffected per Ugin.

      • Taiger_Fly

        No one said thats just the Tarkir Timeline cuz the Dead of Ugin by Bolas grow him strong so he went to Grixis and blabla bla u know the rest^^

        • childofalara

          Many people from wizards have said explicitly that what Sarkhan did only affected Tarkir.

      • Scion of the Dragons

        so the only plane to not know that sarkahn exist is tarkir? although he was theoretically never born, he was still present to save ajani and release the eldrazi?

    • Melissa Juice

      The time-travel stuff was Tarkir ONLY.

    • Taiger_Fly

      thats the question if Tarkir never happens will Domnaria happen? and if the case is no then Alara will not Happen cuz it was the with the reaction of Karns Timerifts thanks to Urza^^ and if Urza doesnt dissapear Karn will not use the Timemachine and so Alara will not Rip Appart and Ajani will not travel to Jund and dont met the Dragonspeaker

    • Kahai

      The way i understand Planes in MTG is that they are all their own mini universes, each with their own particular set of rules.

      Mirrodin had a set number of mana colored suns, is a layered plane versus a globe.

      Ravnica is a plane of cities, the entire plane is a city.

      Theros had the God Complex.

      Tarkir had dragons, lost dragons, got dragons back.

      Time in each mini-verse works on its own scale, its own time. Moving within that scale does nothing to outside scales.

      The Blinding Eternities is the space between planes, moving back in time there MIGHT affect all planes, but it is doubtful.

    • Hedronal

      In the Uncharted Realms article The Story of Tarkir Block, this was confirmed as the explanation:

      “4. Sarkhan Vol was never born.
      Although many of the same people were born in the alternate timeline—due perhaps to destiny, or perhaps to a sort of path of least resistance in history—Sarkhan Vol was not. Perhaps this was because he was involved in the change, and therefore, in a sense, already existed. He appeared one day on whatever world he first planeswalked to, remembering a full life history that never truly happened. There are different ways to look at this; one could say that he arrived from the alternate timeline, or one could say that he appeared out of nowhere, remembering a world that never existed.”

      • Scion of the Dragons

        thank you for having the quotes.

  • Riverfall Mimic

    So Stormcrow gave Lilly her spark?

    • Melissa Juice

      Stormcrow IS the spark.

      • Dr. Burn Crow

        We are everyone’s spark. Storm crow is love. Storm crow is life.

        • Riverfall Mimic

          I thought it was more than a coincidence that she had a crow around. And not just a crow – four crows – and any one of them could be Storm Crow. Even the one that is also a tree.

    • Ryū

      Before planeswalkers, before the Brothers War, before the Elder Dragon War, before even Dominaria and the multiverse, there was simply Storm Crow.

    • kltsurumaki

      Actually, those are ravens, and if you’ve read her origins, you’d know that she went all evil and such because of a guy named the “Raven Man.”

  • Arcanis The omnipotent

    derp

    • Angrygnome

      A 6/6 or 7/7 for CMC5 with Flash in White? All before even looking at his second ability, you fully realize that would be borked, right? You can get 6/6’s for CMC5 in Green, and that’s if they get nothing else. You can get that kind of body/cost ratio in Black, but have to deal with some kind of horrible cost to sustain it. But for CMC5 in White with a relevant keyword and two relevant creature types, plus a situationally powerful ability? This guy is likely going to top out a 3/4 or 2/5.

      2/5 would be pretty solid on a Flash body, actually. Blocks for days and kills Morph creatures.

      • Arcanis The omnipotent

        merp

        • Poopa Scoops

          In green.

        • Angrygnome

          Well, let’s rip this apart here:

          “3/2 with shroud for 1”

          Wow, you sure do forget that whole “sacrifice a land” clause in there. Also in Green, home of the Big.

          “6/6 trample for 4”
          Argothian Wurm? You mean the guy that has the in-built “anyone can bounce me” clause? Still in Green, home of the Big.

          “8/8 trample that cant be countered”
          Good old Terra Stomper. With triple GREEN in his casting cost, you’d think he’d be seated well within Green, home of the Big.

          And yet you provide no examples of WHITE doing this, because that isn’t White’s schtick. Generally if White goes big on a stat, it’s the Toughness and not the Power. The fact that all this is paired with the keyword Flash (which is important, mind you), makes it even LESS likely that in the event of square stats he will break 4/4. We might not currently *know* what his Power and Toughness are, but we *can* make properly educated guesses, and numbers like 6/6 and 7/7 for CMC 5 in White with a relevant keyword and an O-Ring trigger don’t exactly qualify.

          • Disciple of Garruk

            I’m guessing 3/3 or 2/4. Flash alone adds so much let alone exile trigger. He’s not mythic so don’t expect a big p/t. 6/6 is just ridiculous. If he was even 4/4 he would be $20+ card.

        • Gareth Martin

          Dumb dumb dumb dumb! Also, why not bring up Avacyn? She is an 8/8 for 8 with keywords out the wazoo! I still agree with Angrygnome though.

  • Arcanis The omnipotent

    but atleast hixus exiles all the creatures that dealt damage to you

  • Arcanis The omnipotent

    so most likely a 3/4 or a 4/4

    • Dr. Burn Crow

      I can’t believe I share a color with you…

      • Ryū

        If it makes you feel better, he’s probably a goblin under that robe. Well, maybe that makes it worse…

        • Arcanis The omnipotent

          I am actually a squirrel under this robe thank you.

          • Amon_The_Oracle

            Wombats are better.

      • Arcanis The omnipotent

        cant wait for previews

        • Dr. Burn Crow

          ….-sigh-

      • Gix

        Yeah but what have you done with yourself lately? You cousin, Squadron Hawk, he managed to stick himself into modern and is hanging out with Soul Sisters right now.

      • CnBCustoms

        He can’t be omnipotent – his name isn’t even capitalized correctly!

        • kasigah

          That’s omniscience you’re thinking of, but I like where you’re going with that one.

          • CnBCustoms

            It works for omnipotent. If he can do anything, how come he can’t capitalize correctly?

          • kasigah

            Just because he can doesn’t mean he wants to.

          • kasigah

            Also, you can have the ability to do anything and not know that you can, or how to control those abilities.

  • Matt Wasser

    We are a few short weeks away from the start of preview season of origins. Can’t wait!!!!!!!

  • Kahai

    Eagle of the Watch

    2W
    Flying
    Vigilance
    2/1

    275/272 (supposed to represent being included in side product)

    Features the Origins Logo.

  • selesnyawarden

    I finally Understand it!!! did any of you read the Uncharted realms this week /03/06/15/ ? My speculation on Liliana is that the fourth demon in Liliana’s contract is a Planeswalker…But what I really meant to share with you guys here is the truth behind the ending in the Theros block reel nearly a year ago. And we are going to see Chandra’s home (my sweet Chandra I’m still betting on you,,,P.S no fire-girl pun intended)

    When mortals die on Theros and go to the underworld, they have a clay mask for Athreos to collect. But if you wish to returmn to the surface, you forge a Gold mask and presented before Erebos, and lose your identity. Elspeth made her mask out of the handle in her sword, instead of gold, not to fool Erebos but to infuse it with her planeswalker essence, whaterver amount she may have left inside her so she wont become a returned, with no memories. after all, she is a champion who defied many obstacles, even challenged a god, but that’s just me thinking crazy theories.

    • pain42

      there is probably something to your theory, and you’re not the first person i’ve heard talk about it, theories similar to yours have been circulating since theros ended. elspeth has been pretty plot-centric, or at least plot-relevant, and IMO she’ll be back, probably two sets or so after BfZ, so i would guess we’ll see her towards again towards the end of next year, since the new release format is designed to help speed up the story.

      • selesnyawarden

        Well I actually didn’t know there were more people who came up with similiar theories, lets believe in Elspeth so that the power of belief helps her out of the underworld, If you look back on my other comments way back a year or so. I also said something about Dominaria and how ithis news could be that “Surprise” Wotc is rumoring/planning about, you know something big for 2017. At first I thought it was Kamigawa, but when they plot-filled Lilianas’ origin saying she is from Dominaria, I was started to think otherwise.

        So lets believe in Elspeth.

    • Matt Wasser

      I see a few ways Elspeth could get out of the underworld. She could forge a mask, like you said, she could kill Erebos and escape, or since we know that Ajani is on Theros telling the story of how the sun god killed his champion to get people to rethink believing in the gods. So may be the power of the gods could be weaken to the point that Elspeth could escape the underworld with out killing Erebos or becoming a returned.

  • Mike Thomas

    Super cool that Jace’s origin was the same place with the mage-rings.

  • Arcanis The omnipotent

    yay another 20 something eagle of the watch to add to my collection :(

    • BTW you can’t open those in packs.

  • Captain Sunshine

    PLEASE REPRINT STORM CROW!!!!

    • Captain Sunshine

      Then I can finally make a decent standard deck…

  • HBFF

    This was leaked a month ago and considered fake. This was a month before anyone knew that Kaladesh was Chandra’s homeplane, so it may actually real.

    • pain42

      if the card you meant to post is the one i think it is it was debunked for other reasons than the name.

      however i agree that there is more fire for its cause now that we have new information

      • cement dorado

        Im pretty sure the card is fake but the name is legit because obtaining marketing materials is fairly easy.

      • HBFF

        I assume my link was filtered because it belonged to the competition. That’s embarrassing. :)

        But it’s on the front page of this site now, so yeah, it’s that one. I read the arguments debunking it, but other than the “2014” thing (and I really can’t make the digit, it’s so blurred), everything else seems grasping.

        It could be as cement dorado says, though – someone got the name and faked the card. But if so, they made a really good job at it.

        • cement dorado

          yea!

  • cement dorado

    there are three cards i want reprinted in origins. Glimpse the unthinkable, bridge from below, hedron crab. Also stormcrow planeswalker :3

    • pain42

      whoa there, glimpse would be insanely powerful for the current standard meta, there’s no way that’s coming back. i could maybe see bridge, since it seems like it wouldn’t be too ridiculous in standard right now, however i don’t have background knowledge of how good or bad it was when it was last in standard, which would play heavily into weather or not wizards would reprint something. hedron crab could be a thing, however the PW from zendikar in origins is nissa, so i feel like most of the zendikar stuff will be related to her.

      and we all want the glorious crowwalker, but i feel like we’re gonna be waiting for an extension set for that one buddy ;)

      • cement dorado

        I need cheaper glimpse man. Modern mill is useless without glimpse :P and I think it could be relevant. Also bridge has a Lilliana feel. the crabs are just meh… now ima throw this theory out there. I feel Jace loses his memory after his planeswalk. THe reason Niv-mizzet knows of planeswalkers is because He ripped Jaces memory to shreds after finding out he came from another place.

        • pain42

          i think modern mill would be better off getting something new rather than getting a reprint of something old that isn’t helping it enough to be tier one, i’ve considered it for modern as well, it’s just not quite there atm, and you would have had better luck crossing your fingers for glimpse in MM2 since they throw extras in there sometimes. otherwise it could be a money card in one of the next commander sets.

          if you check out the salvation page for jace that actually explains what happened to him

        • Noatzon

          However Niv dosen’t know about Planeswalkers. One of the latest Uncharted Realms where quite clear on that.

          • cement dorado

            ik. but I dream of it :P

        • Saga Spark

          Glimpse would be broken for a different reason. Delve. Oh, I’m gonna glimpse myself, then delve for 10.

  • Ray Becker

    My simple predictions are: 2 of each basic land from each plane, with the respective mana symbols representing the Planeswalkers from those planes, and one mechanic from each plane being represented, most reprints from previous sets, perhaps a few new mechanics for the previously unseen planes.

    • cement dorado

      i hope its good reprints

    • pain42

      rolling with your idea, i’m figuring that Vryn is gonna throw us some more rebound cards based on the lore we know about it. i don’t really know anything about kaladesh or regatha though…..

      Theros- Heroic (most thematically sensible, at least in relation to Gideon)

      Bant- Exalted (same reason as above)

      Ravnica- I want overload, but i’m almost feeling cipher or transmute, since younger jace had a bit more of a dark streak than current jace does.

      Dominaria- This could literally be anything… split second or madness would be cool though.

      Innistrad- I would guess flavorfully undying would be the winner here, but i could get behind morbid showing up again.

      Zendikar- landfall is what i’m feeling here, otherwise maybe level up abilities?

      Lorwyn- champion maybe?? or better we could just get some new elf tribal stuff

      • Fakeromon .

        i doubt we’ll see level up since we’re already getting double-faced cards. Also, double-faced cards for innistrad

        • pain42

          that’s a good point i suppose, but it doesn’t mean that level up is necessarily out of the running imo

      • cement dorado

        Vryn- rebound/ mill???
        Theros- Heroic/ tokens
        Bant- Exalted
        Ravnica- something new. or cipher
        DOminaria- Storm lol jk. Probably split second
        Innistrad- Undying
        Zendikar- Probably level up
        Lorwyn- Champion
        that’s my guess

  • Captain Sunshine

    Eagle of the watch rocks, best of the 3 spoilers so far. Something that can compete with storm crow

  • BlahBlahBlahBla

    BANT BANT BANT BANT BANT BANT BANT BANT!!1!1!!11!!

  • Thorgaaz

    I don´t think there were too many reprints. For that they have the Numbered Editions and I really don´t think they need more than that. For me it seems way more like reminding their old Ideas. Like Arcane, Transmute, Metalcraft, Landfall horsemanship phasing and shadow and stuff like that.
    When I read Origins I hoped for Dwarves and Orcs(there are way too few of them right now) but now it doesn´t seems to happen.

    Well at least I hope it is like that. Reprinting would be an little boring. But after I´ve seen the spoiler my hope raises for new cards.

    • Aarhg

      Well, we got some orcs in Tarkir block. Dwarves would be sweet to see more of.

      • cement dorado

        dwarves are basically goblings. Except dwarves kill your land.

        • Ray Becker

          Are you trying to give J.R.R.Tolkien fans a heart attack? That is blasphemy.

        • Melissa Juice

          Dwarves are NOTHING like goblins.

          • cement dorado

            ehhh. imo theya re kinda the same. Except they were abandoned as a creature type

    • Phil Bowles

      I was hoping for an Orc lord given the Tarkir orcs. Origins is a possibility, as there are Orcs on Dominaria.

  • Melissa Juice

    Interesting planes, interesting planes.

  • TonyP

    Origin of trogdor the burninator confirmed! He will be a flip card..one side a man and the other side a dragon man. Gonna be GREAT!

    • Ryx

      but I thought he was just a dragon, named TRROOGGGDOOOR!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Pozd5995

    This is the perfect time to reprint Huntmaster!

    • cement dorado

      I wouldn’t mind

    • Ryx

      why? It is not expensive anymore, their is no reason to believe that their will be any other transformation cards besides the walkers and it really doesn’t fit with the feel of the set.

      • Jazzyboy1

        The dragons, goblins and vampires don’t really fit with the feel of the set either, seeing as I doubt they have much relation to the planeswalkers; but it seems like they are just printing cards from the different planes, not just cards with relation to the PWs. Huntmaster’s from Innistrad so he’s quite viable here.

        If you mean mechanics rather than flavour… well, we don’t really know how the set’s going to play. So far, we’ve just seen one really good black planeswalker who likes killings things, a control Soldier and loads of crappy commons with no consistent theme that I can see so far.

  • Antares

    So what cards are you guys hoping to get reprinted? We know that there are two new mechanics (one being “Flip walkers”, and no old mechanics besides evergreen ones (I swear I read this somewhere). As such, I am thinking any reprinted card will be either unique or only have evergreen effects. I don’t think we’ll see anything from RTR or Theros specifically that is not a new card (E.g. Hixus looks Therosian). However, the other blocks (even Innistrad) look old enough to me that we might see a reprint or two. . . .

    I’m hoping for a few of the more awesome Legendary creatures from the planes . . .
    – Avacyn, Angel of Hope
    – Linvala, Keeper of Secrets
    – Jenara, Asura of War
    – Knight of the Reliquary (come on, she’s Elspeth)
    – Feather (PLEASE give us a feather print. PLEASE :P )
    – Rhys the Redeemed

    and some of the more awesome spells:
    – Bant Charm
    – Maelstrom Pulse

    However, I would LOVE to see more Legends (and I mean AWESOMELY EPIC ONES, Wizards. Not experiments like Hixus) that expand on the lore of the plane. Maybe more of the Amesha (the council of 8 ruling archangels of Bant), more of the leonin and heroes of Theros, members of the guilds of Ravnica, more on Lorwyn/Shadowmoor, etc.

    But seriously, Wizards, GIVE US FEATHER!!! I want a Pierakor An’vrinzen card. XD :P

    • Ethan Firebringer

      It’s about time we got Feather.

    • GeneralGenerous

      Awwww Feather was an awesome character. Honestly I thought she’d be the new Boros guildmaster in Gatecrash, but Wizards kinda threw out the old storyline in lieu for the nonsense that transpired in that block. Yeah we still have 3 gargantuan nephilim running around Utvara, but hey look, a race! Also no Cult of Yore. Ugh what a crappy block in hindsight.

    • WellDressedShorty

      but, elspeth is dead. (thank god for that too)

    • Phil Bowles

      Gold cards other than perhaps a story legend or Sliver aren’t likely. Recent core sets have almost immediately reprinted cards (M15, released after Journey into Nyx, had Satyr Wayfinder, for example, first printed in Born of the Gods), so Ravnica, Theros and Tarkir may all have reprints. For the latter Tormenting Voice seems likely as a new red staple effect (since with flashback ruled out we won’t be seeing Faithless Looting). We probably won’t see any prowess cards from Tarkir, since they’re too closely-tied to the setting, but possibly some ‘noncreature spells matter’ effects are generic enough. Surprised that they printed Lightning Javelin instead of the almost strictly superior Bolt of Keranos, but we could well still see scry cards from Theros reprinted (especially if they’re sticking with Theros’ “scry is primary in blue/red” rather than older sets’ “scry is primary in blue”, as suggested by previewing a red scry card before any other colour). I wouldn’t rule out seeing five of the temples as the land cycle in the set – probably the allied colour ones.

      From your list, Rhys the Redeemed is out because the setting is Lorwyn, and therefore presumably predates the events of Shadowmoor (since the storyline broke the Lorwyn/Shadowmoor cycle, there’s no post-Shadowmoor Lorwyn) – the fact that black elves are back supports this.

      I’d like to see Wayfinder again, in fact, since the assorted graveyard resource decks in Standard have shown that there just isn’t an equally efficient substitute for this staple green effect unless they reprint the original Mulch – cards like Commune from the Gods are too narrow, Scout the Borders too expensive, and pre-Wayfinder stalwart Grisly Salvage too gold.

  • Ethan Firebringer

    Probably gonna get some of those legendaries from recent planes we didn’t get cards for. Taigam, Thraxes, Feather, stuff like that. I really hope Feather.

    • Phil Bowles

      Tarkir isn’t one of the planes in the set – no Taigam. Probably in a Commander product down the line.

  • Ethan Firebringer

    I still have hope. That one day, they will print Urza. And that day…Will. Be. Awesome.

    • whatever

      They did. The card is called Blind Seer.

      • Ethan Firebringer

        As a planeswalker, I mean.

  • Ethan Firebringer

    I just realized something about Hixus. No one will ever swing out against white ever again. Except for me. Because I play for fun. XD

    • Phil Bowles

      Of course they will. Then, after combat, they’ll cast their Wrath effect to wipe the board and get all their creatures back.

      It’s a very nice card – not sure it’s Standard-playable since it’s so easy to remove for most decks, but it might have an anti-green sideboard role,

  • Karrthus tyrant of Jund

    “straight into the cube” -conor, about boggart brute.

  • Arcanis The omnipotent

    I just wished they returned some of the older tribal’s so we can have more support for them like squirrels, dwarves and kobolds because who doesn’t love playing those fun old tribals

    • magicdai

      we still need a token for kobolds

  • GeneralGenerous

    With the addition of scry, I think we can safely assume Serum Visions will be in Origins. The fact that it’s slated to be the Aug FNM promo is further evidence I suspect. Since this year WotC has been printing relevant standard cards as FNM promos.

    • Ryx

      Sorry but no. Wizards stated that Serum Visions and Path to Exile were printed as FNM promos for modern since they were not printed in MM 2015.

      • Phil Bowles

        That doesn’t imply that they won’t be in Origins, but it’s far from certain.

        • Ry0t

          Putting a $12 modern staple in standard, I highly doubt it.

          • Phil Bowles

            “Putting an expensive Modern staple in Standard? It’ll never happen” – Thoughtseize, October 2013

            Rosewater discussed Liliana of the Veil in his column a few weeks ago, mentioning that it was playtested for inclusion in Magic 2015. And a lot of Modern staples were recent Core Set printings – Scavenging Ooze, for instance. Preordain was first printed in Magic 2011.

            In any case, Wizards has stated repeatedly that Modern doesn’t factor into card design/printing decisions except in the sense that they don’t want to print cards that will have to be pre-banned in Modern.

          • Phil Bowles

            Update: now confirmed that Serum Visions is not in Origins.

          • GeneralGenerous

            KILL THE MESSENGER! =p

  • Person who likes Boggart Brute

    I can see Boggart Brute in some modern decks, my Gruul bloodrush deck being one of them.

    • Jazzyboy1

      No.

    • Phil Bowles

      Ire Shaman was a possible for Modern, but I don’t think it’s made it. Boggart Brute is simply worse.

    • Hunter Nance

      Lol, a 3/2 for 2R with unblockable would not be playable in standard nor certainly not Modern, so why would a 3/2 Menace be even remotely close?

      • Phil Bowles

        It would certainly be playable in Standard, if Goblin Heelcutter didn’t exist in the same slot (when dashed) – evasion is very important for mono-red (even when Courser and Caryatid rotate, there will be solid cheap creatures that can trade 1-for-1 or simply block the red deck from turn 3 onwards). Not a hope for Modern.

  • Dr. Burn Crow

    Need more zombies. Zombie commander, please.

    • Swebartender

      I need more rats, for my rat commander pls

      • Retroze – Will

        rats never get enough love

        • Dr. Burn Crow

          Zombie rats. BOOM!!

    • Guest

      I agree with this. WE NEED MORE ZOMBIES. WE CAN NEVER HAVE ENOUGH ZOMBIES!!

  • Arcanis The omnipotent

    is it me or
    Joraga Invocation has a typo “a single tree does not a forest make”

    • Michele Lo Conte

      i don’t think that’s a typo. Its just very old timey. Think Shakespearean, old poems and novels.

    • Ryū

      No typo there.

    • Melissa Juice

      Welcome to English.

  • j

    so far, av dragon, mik vampire are good to me

    • Phil Bowles

      Malakir Cullblade will be a nice Commander card – not playable anywhere else, but if there’s a removal-heavy archetype in limited it may be good there. Boggart Brute and Subterranean Scout are the only cards I see – apart from the dragon – that could see play in Standard, but both suffer from the fact that mono-red/Atarka red already has better 2- and 3-drops.

  • Arcanis The omnipotent

    wait I just realized there is Innistrad in here so we might get a werewolf legendary :D werewolf edh yay

    • Arcanis The omnipotent

      does this mean we are getting tovolar as a legendary creature finally

      • selesnyawarden

        So you too remember one of the three legendary were-wolfs from innestrad? I am impressed, another fellow vorthos, the multiverse welcomes you!

    • Guest

      I am totally up for a werewolf legendary, but the only thing is, is that Mark Rosewater said that the only DFC in Origins are the Planeswalkers. So either we won’t see one or it will be one sided, which would suck…

  • Phil Bowles

    Not encouraged by the trend towards strictly worse reprints of old blue cards (Contradict vs. Dismiss, Anticipate vs. Impulse, now Separatist Voidmage vs. Man o’War). Also worried about Leaf Gilder as a common – that suggests the stalwart Elvish Mystic could be gone from the common green mana elf slot.

    Joraga Invocation is one of the more interesting takes on Overrun we’ve seen recently; it may be less overpriced than most Lure effects, and combining Lure with pump is something we don’t see often. Limited-quality card only, to be sure, but could be a green pseudo-Wrath.

  • Melissa Juice

    Finallyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

  • Matt Wasser

    I was not expecting to see so many previews so soon. I thought that previews were not going to start until June 29th.

    • pain42

      actually i’m pretty sure they will start on the 22nd, unless you’ve seen confirmation otherwise. i base this on the fact that prerelease is on the 11th, and spoilers generally start two weeks before prerelease week, which would be monday the 22nd

      • Arcanis The omnipotent

        I am also pretty sure its on the 29th

        • Sorter

          Source?

          • merptrp

            why don’t you just look it up if you wanna be asking people where the source comes from

          • Matt Wasser

            It says at the top of this page that release date is July 17th, witch means previews should start June 29th.

      • Phil Bowles

        I expect the planeswalkers will be previewed in their associated Uncharted Realms articles, which start this week.

      • Matt Wasser

        Why don’t you look at the top of this page. It states that release is July 17th. If previews start two weeks before release, then previews start on June 29th.

        • pain42

          thank you for not actually reading what i wrote…

          spoilers are generally the two weeks before the week of prerelease (the week,7/5-7/12, not the weekend 7/11-7/12).
          prerelease is the 11th-12th and the monday before that is the 6th
          two weeks before that monday (the 6th) is the 22nd
          this means that they will start four weeks before the actual release if pattern follows.

          this is based off of the past five sets. spoilers have been complete a week before prerelease and run for two weeks, for each set since (and including) Journey into Nyx, which is when I really started paying attention to spoilers. this means that the official spoiler start (when they start releasing new stuff every day) should be on the 22nd based on the past five sets.

          however, this could start earlier, as seen from the spoilers this week. perhaps wizards is doing things differently this time since Origins is the last core set.

          this being said it i doubt they will wait and start them late this time, so the 29th seems unlikely

          • Matt Wasser

            The point is they released spoilers before I thought they would

  • Blahblahbla

    Evergreen scry and prowess is great news. That and the willingness to put out spoilers early with lots of commons up front instead of just rares makes me happy. I’m excited to see this set.

    • Melissa Juice

      Heck yes. Scy deserves it. Such a perfect mechanic.

      • Phil Bowles

        Now that they’ve added a ‘deciduous’ category I think both could fall in that category. Scry definitely warrants more regular use – it’s a pretty unique mechanic that is, indeed, very well-designed. Prowess works as a new evergreen blue mechanic (is it still shared with white, I wonder?) mechanically, but the name makes very little sense for blue more generally than the Jeskai theme. Making Goblin War Drums a named evergreen mechanic, and costing it more aggressively, is welcome as well. Hopefully the Den Protector mechanic will follow suit (well, it’s become well-costed in its last couple of appearances) now that green’s main form of evasion – landwalk – is gone.

        • Noatzon

          Prowess is a Blue mechanic with some appearance in Red and scarse showing in White according to maRo C:

          • Phil Bowles

            That makes reasonable sense (though it’s a little surprising that white and red have their relationship with prowess reversed). Thinking on it, I suspect that sadly the Den Protector ability will never be evergreen – are any evergreen mechanics exclusively associated with a single colour? They seem to like colour bleed for their core mechanics, and this ability has only ever been green (though makes some sense in red or white, as these colours also have pump effects).

          • Noatzon

            To answer your question; Yes Reach is only in green (tho some Colorless cards have it). Beyoned that Trample is also green (worth of note here is that alot of multicolored cards with or without green have Trample. But on mono-colred cards Trample is neigh on Green exlusive), Haste and Vigilance are also almost exclusive to their respective colors.

            The “Den Protector” effect is a semi-evergreen “mechanic” ie in every Standard there is at least one card in green with that mechanic. we have Restock (M15) in RTR we had “Regrowth”. So the mechanic is allways present but often tweaked a little. Den Protectors precasor can be regarded as Eternal Witness, a pwerhouse in all formats.

            I hope this answered most of your question but if you have more don’t be afraid to ask C:

          • Phil Bowles

            Trample is common on large black and red creatures (see for instance Thunderblust in Modern Masters 2015, or Ob Nixilis Unshackled from Magic 2015) though usually at higher rarities (there are exceptions mainly in red, such as Archetype of Aggression from Born of the Gods); it used also to be common in blue, but was removed when ‘unblockable’ started to be priced efficiently. It does seem to be very rare on modern modern black cards, though, and almost all of those are demons.

            I don’t mean the regrowth ability, which has been a staple green ability since Alpha (and, indeed, Regrowth). I mean the Den Protector evasion (“can’t be blocked by creatures with power less than “), which has only appeared on cards from four expansions – Guildpact, Avacyn Restored, Rise of the Eldrazi, and Dragons of Tarkir, and only one card each in the latter two cases. It’s an ability that they apparently like to use when green has a pump theme (only one card with the ability can’t pump its power) – it was first introduced to play with green’s bloodthirst creatures. With green losing its main evasion ability – landwalk – it needs a replacement. Wandering Wolf is a near-bear with the ability, which seems likely to have been testing the waters for the ability as a standard green effect, but it’s only since been seen on Den Protector.

        • Melissa Juice

          Hear, hear.

  • Murilo Mazza

    Fair cards! Looks like the origin… looks like 4th Edition. 1% is playable

    • wop-wop

      4th edition was very playable… in 1995…. when I was 15 and didn’t know how to build a deck that wasn’t based on how cool the cards looked.

      • Imalwaysangry

        I still haven’t kicked the habit of either A) choosing a card that I shouldn’t bc it looks cool or B)Not chossing a card I should bc the art is meh. I don’t win much…

        • gabriel

          if it comforts you, i haven’t either

    • metrp

      you know you shouldn’t judge a set by its commons its very unhealthy.

      • Phil Bowles

        Previews are usually a good guide because they’re selected to be interesting. For Fate Reforged we were shown Goblin Heelcutter, for Origins the best common revealed so far is Subterranean Scout. It’s not in the same league.

        • Matthew Don

          I don’t know, Chandra’s Fury looks pretty damn good to me…

      • Murilo Mazza

        You know you shouldn’t judge me and check the spoiler here only with commons, makes your health worse

    • Phil Bowles

      Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, Dark Ritual, Wrath of God, Stone Rain, Armageddon, Balance and Counterspell would certainly be welcome (hey, white needs a bit of a push).

      These are certainly underwhelming previews for the most part, but the mythic dragon will keep GR Dragons alive when Stormbreath rotates (I remember when Standard went wild for a 4RR dragon that forced you to sac lands), prowess Ophidian is probably not quite Standard-playable but will be very strong in Limited, and the same’s true of Boggart Brute, Seismic Elemental and the owl. Subterranean Scout is playable in mono-red. Green looks nothing short of appalling based on this and the sample deck list (Leaf Gilder still worries me – will they really not have Elvish Mystic in a core set?), though Yeva Forcemage and Elvish Visionary are welcome. Will they stop with Titanic Growth? Giant Growth is fine for Limited and not quite playable in modern Standard – at the very least a more interesting variant like Predator’s Strike (or even the strictly inferior Awaken the Bear).

  • selesnyawarden

    So far from the info I confirmed a few years back, MTG has new art director, so I kinda understand why the new Lorwyn cards don’t have that fairytale look-feelish thing they had before. Also most of thier original artist don’t seem to be on Magic origins, namely Omar Ryaan and my old time favorite (I still miss her and her MTG art) Rebecca Guay. I don’t know if Terese Nielsen is on Origins, guess I’ll have to wait for spoilers then.

    • Phil Bowles

      Never liked Guay’s art, but new art director or no they should keep to the same feel for each setting. Take the new Vendilion Clique art – they did away with the cartoon look, but kept the fairy tale theme (indeed the new art looks just like a better-drawn version of the original art).

      • selesnyawarden

        I’ve read about that comparison between the old Vendillion Clique and the new art. Its mostly as you say and if I may say so, I also like how the fairy-tale elements were conserved and to a point, improved upon, based on the artist’s own view. In an overall feeling, I like the new art. The liveness of the colors is admirable and brings nostalgia back home.

        • Phil Bowles

          Wish they’d done the same with the Lorwyn-themed cards here. Eyeblight Assassin barely has visible Lorwyn elf horns (though otherwise it’s not too far off the Lorwyn feel), and Boggart Brutes look nothing like Lorwyn boggarts – if anything they look like an updated version of Rath’s moggs.

    • Fakeromon .

      I heard somewhere, Rebecca Guay won’t be doing any ore magic cards.

      • selesnyawarden

        That’s right my friend, I don’t know how the argument got settled but apparently its Wotc’s art directive mermbers that have taken the desicion of not requiring more of Guay’s talent.

  • Ryot

    does anyone know if Wizards will continue the multiple pre-release promos set up for origins pre-release and other sets in the future?

    • Hardy Kallas

      hope so

  • Aarhg

    With the reprints of Cruel Revival and Scrapskin Drake combined with the new Shambling Ghoul and the fact that Liliana is a necromancer, I think it’s safe to assume that we’ll be getting some sweet new zombie tribal goodies.

    • Dr. Burn Crow

      We better. Otherwise I will be sad.

    • duke

      I crave brains and I agree with Aarhg entirely.

  • Winter Trabex

    Xixus, Prison Warden looks really good. It doesn’t target. Just let three creatures attack you, boom exile them all.

  • duke

    Dominaria and Innistrad happen to be my two favorite planes…Origins is definitely going to be a blast.

    • Dr. Burn Crow

      Hell yeah. Also, dope avatar.

      • duke

        Why thank you Dr. Storm Crow gotta love the classic Zombie Master!

        • Dr. Burn Crow

          Easily one of my favorite old cards. Combine with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth for ultimate evil.

          • duke

            When I first started playing and saw Urborg and the Master…I was like oh yeah the zombie invasion is imminent, ultimate evil at the kitchen table!

  • Adam Schwartzkopf

    That mythic dragon would help delver type deck. Anyone thinking blue red delver? Or maybe the cards will set up for BFZ and we will see nico bolas back

    • cement dorado

      It helps burn get their card draw…. if only it had prowess. XD

      • Adam Schwartzkopf

        That would be sick

        • cement dorado

          any dragon with prowess is terrifying. heck the owl is more op than people believe it to be. its can easily become a 6/6

          • Ashenmoor?

            Isn’t a 4 mana drop that will only effectively make difference in the 5th turn a bit too much for burn?

    • Phil Bowles

      4 mana is a bit high for an engine piece in that deck, but otherwise it seems an interesting fit for dredge – Faithful Looting every turn.

    • wwww

      Are you talking about decks with Delver of Secrets or decks that runs cards with Delve ability?

  • wwww

    Scry is back guys.

    There’s no excuse to NOT get Serum Vision back…

    • selesnyawarden

      That explains the exclusion of serum visions from MM2

      • Phil Bowles

        And Theros…

        • selesnyawarden

          Its true, Theros seemed like a perfect home for reprinting serum visions, but probably it was to balance the power level in favor of the time it could have been released. And if anything should have gone wrong for standard, well there’s always the ban power, right?

          • wwww

            Think they were afraid of UW control (back in RTR) getting too dominant.

          • Dr. Burn Crow

            Also it would be weird flavor in the set.

          • Phil Bowles

            The name doesn’t fit the Theros theme. There’s no question of Serum Visions being overpowered in Standard – Standard isn’t a combo-based format and it’s much better able to sustain consistency tools than Modern. No one ever needed to ban Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time in Standard. Wizards has said recently that they don’t like card draw for U spells and won’t be printing more any time soon – which is quite possibly because they’d warrant an immediate ban in Modern – but that shouldn’t apply to reprints of one of the few sufficiently low-powered to be legal in Modern.

          • selesnyawarden

            That’s a sharp observation and I was going to point that same fact about the name serum visions due to its relation with metal-liquid alloys and other similar elements. As to the “ban power”, well it is also true that Wotc dislikes recurring to this “last resorce” as it is most unhealthy at least on regards for standard play enviroment.

            Although Spoilers begin roughly in two weeks or so and serum visions has quiet a spotlight of news for now. I myself want the card to lower in price a bit so I too can build a delver grixis whacky casual deck. With old Snappy and his brother the young pyromancer.

          • Phil Bowles

            I have a full set from Fifth Dawn so I don’t much care about its price, though it’s odd it costs so much more than Ponder or Preordain – that’s the relative importance of Modern vs. Legacy to the secondary market, I suppose.

            As for the name, there are a lot of cards that sadly don’t get the reprints they’d warrant because the name doesn’t match – Bridge from Below would have fit Tarkir perfectly, with both the mill supporting delve and creatures being exploited, but there’s no underworld in Tarkir lore from which there could be a ‘bridge’. It was a missed reprint from Theros on flavour grounds, and that block had a solid mill/graveyard subtheme.

    • Melissa Juice

      There is a reason. They’re wary of having card filtering that good in standard. A reasonable worry, indeed.

      • Alice Louise Moore

        Standard has Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, and Thoughtseize. Sphinx’s Revelation was in Standard. A reasonable worry, but, not a huge worry with Serum Visions.

        • daniel smith

          The fact that standard has Cruise and Dig is even MORE of a reason to not print powerful cantrips.
          A big part of the reason that Cruise and Dig were too powerful for Modern was BECAUSE of cards like Serum Visions.

        • Melissa Juice

          It’s the playability on turn one, frankly.

          They LOVE big draw/filtering effects, as long as they have drawbacks, high mana costs, or at least take some work.

          Powerful one mana spells are incredibly dangerous.

        • Matthew Don

          umm…turn two anticipate is Serum visions with a card draw…don’t see the difference…except one extra mana

      • Arcanis The omnipotent

        well atleast its not a ponder :D

  • selesnyawarden

    I shall offer a prayer to Iroas, god of victory to grant me triumph in my battles against other fellow walkers at the prerelease. Then I shall team up with Gideon to help me track down Chandra, The Fire Beauty of Kaladesh, learn the secrets of passionate inspiration for the art of creation magic. After I help Jace escape the grasp of those who would destroy him, he leads me to Liliana. She shares some secrets of necromancy and legendary demons with me, then she gives me the location to Nissa in Zendikar. There I meet with Nissa who tells me we need more allies to fight against the Erasers of planes and lives, The Eldrazi. They exist as a balance between planes, how many are born and how many are extinguished. I travel back through the blind eternities looking for Ugin, Sorin, Nahiri, Ajani, Sarkhan, Kiora, Ramaz, Domri, Chandra, Jace, Gideon, Garruk, and Im all out of mana, landing of the Truga Jungle, exhausted, I fall into a nameless sleep. After an undisclosed period of time I wake up, only to find that I overslept on top of my PC screen viewing Magic Origins Spoilers and I am late for my first day of Magic Origins prerelease. Important note, the Truga jungle on Ergamon have really BIG mushrooms so I advise ALL planeswalkers going there to take precautionary measures as they do release powerful hallucignogen spores.

    • cement dorado

      im gonna make a deal with griselbrand he sys he can whep me win prerelease.

      • selesnyawarden

        You sure can! :)

        • Dr. Burn Crow

          All I need is…STORM CROW!!!! Ka-KAW!!!

          • selesnyawarden

            Hey there! Its good to see you around these parts, good old storm crow,,,your comments have been missed

          • Dr. Burn Crow

            Awww, its good to feel loved.

          • selesnyawarden

            ;)

          • Dr. Burn Crow

            I don’t know what to say to that.

          • not arcanis at all

            say arcanis is the best wizard ever printed :D

          • Dr. Burn Crow

            You spelled “Ghoulcaller Gissa” really weird, champ.

          • Arcanis The omnipotent

            funny >:(

  • bobie

    75% reprint 35% new cards

    • Math.

      • Ashenmoor

        isn’t this true to every core set ever?

        • Nanarchy

          Only since M10. Previously it was all reprints

        • All I was referring to was the 75% + 35%.

    • Alfonso Amabile

      you meant 25% new cards

  • tyke5140

    Waiting on the hydra for this set…

  • Pej Pej

    now the crappy cards from free packs are here, wait for a surprise in 10 days lol.. what the hell wotc, why are you reprinting IT omg !

  • flower

    this set looks like the epitome of why wizards decided to stop printing core sets

    • Stef

      Awkwardly enough, yes.
      The unique names leads you to believe it is something special. But underneath it is still just Magic 2016.

    • Melissa Juice

      This set isnt even 1/4 revealed, so your comment makes no sense.

      • negro

        ;Im sure it will get better, just like mm 2015 did

        • Melissa Juice

          Negro? Really?

  • Eric Morsi

    Am I missing something… I cannot detect any casting mana cost on

    Liliana, Defiant Necromancer. Maybe a new rule for casting planeswalkers slipped past my memory.

    • tyke5140

      Look up Liliana, Heretical Healer and you’ll have your answer.

    • goldfalsebond

      The theme of this set is the origin stories of the five planeswalkers in the set (hence the name). So, these walkers will actually be flip cards like in Innistrad, with a legendary creature on the main side, and their planeswalker form on the other. If you don’t know anything about flip cards, there is one main side that has a mana cost that you must pay in order to play, while the other side has no mana cost. The main side of the card will have some trigger that causes it to “transform” and flip over. In this set, the creatures are the walkers before their sparks have ignited. They will have an ability (I am guessing they will all be triggered abilities) that causes them to exile and then enter the battlefield flipped as a planeswalker. This is capturing the moment their sparks ignite, and they transform into a planeswalker.

      tl;dr:
      The walkers in this set all start as creatures that have a mana cost, then flip over to their planeswalker form.

      • Named Tawny

        Double-Faced Cards. Flip cards are something else entirely.

  • Arcanis The omnipotent

    man for the last core set the commons and uncommons look terrible and I am still buying a booster box.

    • Ryx

      well we have only seen 1/5 of the set. Wizards probably pick this set of cards to spoil so we can see good cards during the spoiler weeks, and besides, what set didn’t have a stack of poor commons and uncommons.

      • Ray Kearney

        It could also be possible that some of these are only available in those free 30 card decks given out in game stores. Some of the Rares one like Shivan Dragon and Nightmare will not actually be in the boosters but still be legal to play in standard, could be it is the same with a few of the commons

        • Aarhg

          Yup, here are the cards that will be available only in the sample decks:

          Aegis Angel, Divine Verdict, Eagle of the Watch, Serra Angel, Into the Void, Mahamoti Djinn, Weave Fate, Flesh to Dust, Mind Rot, Nightmare, Sengir Vampire, Fiery Hellhound, Shivan Dragon, Plummet, Prized Unicorn, Terra Stomper

          • Phil Bowles

            Personally I hope that this means Garruk’s Packleader has been promoted to the ‘main’ set; that was the most playable of the ‘sample deck only’ cards last time, and I’ve had some success with it in a Magic Online Standard deck.

          • Melissa Juice

            Glad to see someone make use of it. Nice job!

    • Melissa Juice

      Theyve BARELY revealed anything…so, what are you talking about?

  • cement dorado

    im pretty sure some of these are not actually gonna be in the booster packs. Also I kinda think that a lot of the newc ards will be better tha you all are giving the set. Yall need 2 chill yo.

  • duke

    One reason I have always loved core sets is because it seems like you always get at least one or two good old creatures of your favorite type. For me I’m always happy to see an intriguing new zombie in black, and Wizards has already satisfied me with Shambling Ghoul.

    • Dr. Burn Crow

      We need another fun zombie lord. Risen Executioner is decent, but I want something with a tad more wow. Also, I nominate The Raven Man as the black rare legendary. Zombie tribal needs more loving.

      • duke

        I love Risen Executioner and was surprised to see a new zombie lord during Khans block, but yeah us necromancers are always wantin’ more. I was so into Innistrad and the zombie tribal appreciation that was going on then, it would be joyful to have more of that going on right now.

  • Dr. Burn Crow

    Imperious Rex from Jurassic World is an Imperiosaur. Confirmed.

  • Ryan Bruce

    Seems pretty underwhelming thus far.

    • Phil Bowles

      The new cards are mostly uninteresting, except the dragon, but Titan’s Strength has been played in Standard formats since its release, Elvish Visionary will have a home if any suitable elf or combo decks emerge (it seems we’ll have at least an elf subtheme, and I expect to see Elvish Archdruid return). Yeva Forcemage and Eyeblight Assassin may be playable. Liliana isn’t Whip of Erebos, but should be playable in similar decks once that rotates (and as I’ve heard people point out, can be played with Collected Company). Nothing so far equivalent to Stoke the Flames, but then M15 was a particularly good Core Set.

  • davee

    I smell a hint of innistrad. Is it too much to hope for flashback again? Snappy is in dire need of some WOTC love

    • Ryx

      Snapcaster Mage was a mistake, it should not have been printed once and twice is out of the question.

      • Brent Vanderhoof

        Doesn’t matter if it was a ‘mistake.’ It’s a Modern and Legacy staple that is about to hit $90 and it NEEDS a reprint somewhere within the next 6 months. Also saying it shouldn’t have been printed sounds a little salty to me, had some bad experiences against blue buddy? It’s ability would only be able to target 2 mana or more cards since those are the only instants that see play other than wild slash and thoughtseize. It would be a turn 4-5+ card

        • Stef

          Snappy will never be a part of Standard again in my belief. If it gets a reprint within the next 6 month, you need to look at some supplemental product of high price. If WotC makes it a part of a duel deck for instance, they are certainly aware that it would mean an instant global buy out. The supply of Snappys would still be limited and the price would not drop by much. This means the only way to truly reprint the card and push the price down would be in a Modern legal set outside of Standard. Currently we have Modern Masters and the possibility of a new series like Conspiracy. I guess they could include it in future Commander products maybe.
          They could reprint it as a Mythic rare in Standard, but I predict a very generic meta game the following year in that case.
          So $90 or not, I don’t see a lot of options for a reprint in the next 6 months, although nothing is ever impossible for WotC. For the sake of Standard I hope we don’t see it in Standard products as it doesn’t fit the power level of the current meta.

          • thatoneplaneswalker

            Snapcaster: Fools! This isn’t even my final form!

          • Maybe a commander product, but I don’t see why it needs to be reprinted ASAP. Wizards doesn’t pay attention to secondary market prices too much and rarely, if ever, do they put in a card last second to a set so Origins is out of the running either way. I would expect a reprint in a FTV or MM3 in the next 2 years.

        • Ryx

          no wizards actually stated that snapcaster mage was a mistake as it was printed and was suppose to be a 3-4 drop, just like with tarmogofy originally planned as a four drop. And reprinting it would 1) not change it’s price significantly due to its OP nature, 2) completely tank any other value in the set it is printed in, and 3) solidify the standard meta as snapcaster decks and anti snapcaster decks.

          • Melissa Juice

            I always wondered how they even let that card be printed. Great effect; obscene cost.

          • Phil Bowles

            Tarmogoyf was a 3 drop in design, not 4. That doesn’t mean printing it at 2 was a mistake – it was a deliberate decision made in development, which considered that 3 was too much for a base 0/1. It’s hard to deny they were right – at 3 mana the card might have seen niche play but would never have been a staple. The change put it exactly where it needed to be as an icon of the then-new ‘green gets the most efficient creatures, period’ philosophy. Rosewater might consider it a mistake, but he seems generally more conservative than development in the power level he wants to see – and he was the one who designed Tarmogoyf at 3 mana so his perspective is biased, “Mark Rosewater considers it a mistake” and “Wizards considers it a mistake” are not the same thing.

            Snapcaster has proven to be a strong but perfectly fair card in the formats where it’s legal, and it’s one of those cards that depends heavily on the quality of other cards in the format – the sorts of instants and sorceries that are typically legal in Standard would be perfectly fine to flash back with Snapcaster. It’s not an out-and-out bad design like Delver of Secrets or True-Name Nemesis (honestly, who on Earth decided “We want to add a new card to Legacy. What’s the format short of? I know, overpowered blue cards!”). However, Wizards seems to have ruled out a ‘guest’ mechanic returning for Origins (other than the dual-faced planeswalkers) so there’s no flashback.

        • Ryx

          You wanna know why I hate snapcaster. Fine. The first deck I tried to build for modern was Jeskai delver. I got about 90 percent of the required cards, Bolt, remand, visions, etc. I was just missing a few cards left, including snapcaster, but I had a few oddball cards that could replace them and could be an advantage against people who wouldn’t see them coming. I enter my first modern tournament and got Slaughter 0-6. And after each game, my opponents said the exact same thing ” if you are not playing snapcaster mage, you aren’t not playing right and you shouldn’t try to play the deck at all!” and you know what, they were right. Snapcaster is too good to not run and has no good replacements. After thinking about it I just don’t care anymore. I will just stick with standard where someone can run an off-the-wall deck and still have a chance to win games.

  • The Pudge

    The last core set…please be a GAME CHANGER just this once. Shake up the current meta or end up like the rest of the failed core sets of yesteryears. Go out with a BANG!

    • Gix

      You are saying that Nico Bolas didn’t change the meta a little bit in its time in standard?

      • The Bolas decks with Omniscience and Unexpected Results was a fun deck to play with and against, but it did need to be respected because it could just Bolas you out of nowhere.

        So yeah, didn’t warp the meta at all. Obviously not. *Sarcasm*

  • Jacob Tan

    havent seen anything amazing yet

    • Ryx

      spoiler season hasn’t even started, these cards are not even spoilers. Wizards put these cards in an article just to show the shift in evergreen mechanics, so it would just be bland cards that they show.

    • Melissa Juice

      Out of almost no spoilers? Wow. Good for you.

    • Two words: Elvish Visionary.

      • Phil Bowles

        Nice to have it back, in a format with Collected Company – I wonder if it’s telling that we’re seeing a lot of comes-into-play effects on creatures with 3cc or less (Subterranean Scout, Eyeblight Assassin, Yeva Forcemage, Elvish Visionary). Flashing in Deadbridge Shaman as a blocker isn’t a bad deal either. Maybe they had good reason for adding 1 to Man o’War’s casting cost after all.

        • I’m always a fan of paying four mana for at least three mana in value at instant speed.

  • Stormcrow

    Avaricious Dragon look like a trash mythic. What a bummer…
    All these spoilers thus far and I am not impressed.

    • kingalexander61

      There have barely been any spoilers…………

    • Ryot

      Yeah that was original idea of Whisperwood elemental but it impacted standard for quite a while.

    • Phil Bowles

      Avaricious Dragon is a fantastic card – perhaps not so much for Standard, though it will undoubtedly see play in the Dragon decks, but it works wonderfully with flashback. Even in Standard it does fun things with Flamewake Phoenix, and we have new Liliana to fill the void left by Whip of Erebos (though admittedly not as well).

      Sure, you have to use your extra card or lose it, but that didn’t stop Outpost Siege seeing a lot of use. Outpost Siege with a 4/4 flying body I can certainly get behind.

      • And for a short while it also adds two red devotion.

  • Fakeromon .

    … I think the raven man is a planeswalker

  • Alex Lopez Melero

    Real or Fake? 0.0

    • Stef

      Looks plausible. Obviously made to be used with fetches… which means…. more fetch reprints coming this year, hopefully.
      Also looks like a card that would be beautiful in foil.

      • Ashenmoor

        It does look real indeed, even though the effect can be a bit op with karoo lands and fetches like Stef said.
        The name is an allegory to mnemonic, I presume, in which case it’s probably related to Jace ( well, it’s an island too)

        I think it is very interesting, has some flavour and I kinda hope is true, even though I can see ways people will make it OP ( even though it comes tapped)

        • Kaz

          The art is by Jeff SimpsoM? Who is simpsom? Seems like a blarring typo.

    • John Smith

      fake.

      wizards wouldn’t print a land that was this powerful.

    • BlahBlahBlahBla

      Gotta be fake.. This is wayyyyyyy too powerful… Wayyyyyyyyyyyy too much. This thing will wreck both modern and legacy. Just too much.

    • Trevor

      100 percent fake. It would have the reminder rules text for an Island at the top rather than the bottom (cf. Hallowed Fountain, Murmuring Bosk), not to mention the font for the data at the bottom of the card is wrong — and the artist’s name is misspelled. That’s three strikes, when even one would have sufficed.

      • Guest

        Land cards reminder text isn’t always at the top check Halimar Depths

        • Somnom

          It is when it has the subtype of a basic land. Halimar Depths isn’t an island.

    • Kahai

      I think we will get a cycle of legendary lands for each ‘walker. This fits Jace extremely well. :D

    • Rachel Weinstein

      Fake, sorry. The last line should be the first line, and it should be reminder text as well. (Look at Murmuring Bosk for reference.) Also, the font on the artist credit is off, not to mention that Jeff Simpson’s name is misspelled.

      • Stef

        lol well spotted. Mr. Simpsom is a great artist though, fake or not. :-)

      • Trevor

        I said the same thing. Good to see that more than one person spotted all those mistakes!

  • Djough Smytthe

    I want a cycle of mentors (Alhammaret, Lady Ana or the Raven Man, regathan pyromancer monks, and someone for gideon and nissa)

  • Ray Becker

    3 more Planeswalkers cards spoiled. Nissa, Jace, and Chandra.

    • Ian Fyffe

      new jace is stupid good with his -3

      • Ian Fyffe

        sure it isn’t instant speed but edh players will appreciate its power

        • magicdai

          Imagine having him with teferi pw’s ultimate active

  • Finally

    Just leaking more walkers like always.

  • Magic Wiz

    Whats with the new dark look of the planeswalkers? Is it just that they havent done the color for them yet?

    • Fakeromon .

      Those are promos, the regular ones haven’t been revealed yet.

  • Fakeromon .

    So, is Nissa worse than Tibalt? I think so.

    • Ryx

      well, really depends on the deck you build with each. With Tibalt, your best option is a R/B flashback/madness deck plus some zombies that work the graveyard. Nissa could probably sit in a G/U land deck, with field bounce and X cost creatures as a primary win condition. As Nissa stands now, she isn’t that good but we haven’t seen her legendary “mentor” or any other green spells that fuel her that well.

    • Melissa Juice

      Nope. She’s (maybe) slow to get in, but quite solid.

  • Ultramegalord

    I think they are about due for bird’s of paradise in standard again……

    • Melissa Juice

      I love that card. But I’m pretty scared of it, too.
      heh

  • doekenallw

    so how would one go about getting one of the all-black promos

    • Ultramegalord

      Last time they were the promo cards at Comic-Con
      So yea

    • Melissa Juice

      Sell your sell to Nocturnus. Praise be.

      • I hope you mean soul because otherwise I didn’t sell the right thing.

        • Melissa Juice

          lol

  • Lui

    those aren´t promos, they are the foil pattern negative, wizards has shown many in their site in arcana articles and look the same as these

    • kingalexander61

      No they are SDCC all black promos. They’ve done these for core set walkers for a few years now.

  • Arcanis The omnipotent

    I see the Chandra was finally confirmed real basically. Is it me or that nissa is not as good as m15’s nissa

    • Phil Bowles

      Arguably she’s not as good as Zendikar’s Nissa.

      • Jazzyboy1

        Arguably, she’s not as good as Grizzly Bear.
        At least Grizzly Bear is good in Limited; and a certain deck archetype(Muraganda Bears).

        This Nissa is… just not good in anything. Whatsoever. Even if you had nothing in your Limited pool but Nissa and loads of bears(vanilla 2/2s)… I would leave Nissa out and run a deck full of just bears.

        Can you tell I’m angry at Wizards? :P

        • Phil Bowles

          Maybe this is Wizards saying “you’ve had Vengevine, Primeval Titan, Craterhoof Behemoth, Worldspine Wurm, Whisperwood Elemental, Warden of the First Tree and Deathmist Raptor. Now it’s payback time”. Green’s my favourite colour and always has been, but by this point even I feel it could do with being toned down.

        • BlahBlahBlahBla

          Yea, 0/3 on Nissa’s. All 3 are extremely niche cards that require a lot to be useful in a deck. I’m a little miffed about this one as well. Though, i guess we really do have most of what we could ask for of a green PW in the various Garruks as well as Freyalise.

        • Captain Sunshine

          Yeah, way more playable… XD

          • Captain Sunshine

            oops forgot starting loyalty… lets make it 2 :P

          • sn1per

            wait, bear token with vanilla? So does the bear come out with ice cream? That seems strange and probably sticky.

  • Bookroomy

    Those planeswalkers are kind of meh…

  • welan

    I know some people are probably good to evaluate the price of card. I do know that the planeswalker will get between 20 and 40 dollar at their first release. I know the price will go down two and they ain t no Jace the mind sculpture or liliana of the veil. I was wondering however if the flavor will make the price stay hight / average or will they all drop between 5 and 10 $ like the other in an few month ?

    • Stef

      Well “Planeswalker” is no auto quality stamp. We have examples of that (Tibalt).

      • Phil Bowles

        No, but it does tend to be one that commands automatically high prices at release, even relative to other mythics.

    • Arcanis The omnipotent

      I would say maybe 20 at the most for most of the planeswalkers we see here I think Chandra will probably have the highest value
      between the 4 not counting the white one as he wasn’t revealed yet.

    • sn1per

      I wish people would stop comparing recent planeswalkers to Liliana of the Veil and Jace the Mind Sculptor. Of coarse Wizards isn’t going to print walkers of that power level because they don’t want to create more format warping cards.

      • Phil Bowles

        Liliana of the Veil isn’t “format warping” – it’s at the top end of what planeswalkers should be doing, but the fact that only these two PWs have even had an impact on Modern and Legacy (aside from niche or sideboard roles for one or two others) demonstrates that Wizards is generally too conservative with its newest card type – as with equipment, PWs tend either to be too weak or, if pushed for older formats, drastically overpowered. Liliana’s the only one that really hits the sweet spot.

        These new walkers are however mostly weaker than the ones that have recently seen play in Standard – Chandra is very playable, but while Jace is fairly good he may not have a clear home: dredge decks don’t play many sorceries or instants they want to recur, and with Satyr Wayfinder and Commune with the Gods leaving the format without (yet) any viable replacements it remains to be seen how effective those decks can now be. Liliana’s ‘nonlegendary’ qualifier and slow upticking rules her out of most reanimator strategies in every format, and she hits too late for the discard to be ideal – perhaps in Waste Not decks she’d be good, but those aren’t going to have easy ways to flip her (since the point of those decks is to remove cards that can answer your zombie horde).

        • Djough Smytthe

          “Only these two planeswalkers…”
          Plus Karn Liberated, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, Dack Fayden (Legacy Only), and occasionally Ajani Vengeant, Domri Rade, Koth of the Hammer, and Chandra Pyromaster.

          • Phil Bowles

            “Having an impact on the format” isn’t the same as “occasionally seeing use in some decks”, any more than “being format staples” is the same as being “format warping” – Ugin in Modern more of a standard inclusion than any of these, and he’s still a niche walker since only one deck wants him (and since it’s not Twin, Amulet Bloom or BGx, it’s not a terribly relevant deck for all the strong results it puts up on Magic Online). I’ve seen Vraska the Unseen in Legacy sideboards as well, sometimes Garruk, Apex Predator in Modern. Neither is impactful in any way.

          • John Wayne

            I think the biggest problem with Planeswalkers in an eternal format like Modern is that most of them are four or more mana because their nature makes them too powerful an effect for the most part if they cost less than that. And it’s tough to spend four mana at sorcery speed in something like Modern when a lot of the decks out there are too easily just able to then untap and kill you on the very next turn.

            A card like Siege Rhino actually suffers from this as well… but that doesn’t mean that they should start pushing creatures even more and give us cards that are even better than Siege Rhino, does it?

            It’s more of a comment on eternal formats than it is a comment on the strength of planeswalkers, I think.

          • Phil Bowles

            Part of it is that permanents in general, other than creatures, see rather little use in eternal formats, save for those in Legacy that date to the era of overpowered enchantments (another card type Wizards has been cautious with in recent years). Creatures directly damage players, demand answers, generally (in eternal formats) have comes-into-play abilities, and are actively supplemented by more cards than any other card type – there’s no Birthing Pod or Green Sun’s Zenith for planeswalkers or enchantments. Other permanents do none of these things as efficiently.

            Planeswalkers suffer from this, but surely that is a comment on their power as much as it is on the formats. 4 mana sorcery-speed cards simply aren’t that powerful by their nature unless they do something immediately – Siege Rhino gets a pass because it represents a 6 point life swing immediately.

            The way PWs are templated also makes them very narrow – they can’t have enter-the-battlefield effects, simply due to space constraints on the cards. In addition, very few other cards explicitly reference them; at one point that could be justified by novelty, but to this day almost all cards that directly interact with planeswalkers are black or green kill spells, or are other green effects that hit permanents generically (or blue effects that bounce) – and green doesn’t have an especially powerful suite of planeswalkers. Being a card type that dies to a lot of things but doesn’t have combo synergy with anything is a bad place to be particularly for combotastic Modern (and the variety of planeswalkers used is arguably greater in Legacy). Any permanent with a recurring effect is costed to reflect the fact that you plan on getting multiple uses out of the effect, and planeswalkers specifically have multiple effects and are badly-costed for either alone (even Liliana of the Veil is not impressive seen as a discard spell for 3 or as a sacrifice effect for 3).

          • John Wayne

            When you cast a planeswalker you almost always hold priority and use one of its abilities IMMEDIATELY… which basically equates to having a “enter-the-battlefield effect,” no?

            Planeswalkers are dangerous. VERY, VERY dangerous. THAT is their nature and WotC has to be careful. Do you remember Jace the Mindsculptor AT ALL? If it wasn’t for Jund and especially bloodbraid elf existing then it would have been dominant from the very beginning in standard and would have been banned much sooner. It’s a disgusting card because the nature of planeswalkers is that they’re often trying to work like a Vanguard card for you where you get their abilities over-and-over-and-over again. And, even more, many of their ultimates tend to often read “you win the game” if your opponent lets the planeswalker get out of hand. Honestly, the only reason Liliana was printed was because they knew that Standard was very hostile to IT! Doomed Traveller and undying dudes made Liliana pretty awkward with her 3-costed edict effect…. and then there was Lingering Souls which was just absurd against EVERYTHING Liliana was trying to do. You print something like Liliana at most any other time in the history of Standard and it completely wrecks the format! You print Jace, the Mind Sculptor at a time where it doesn’t compete against Jund out of the gates and it wrecks the format!

            You print a quality 2-costed planeswalker ever and it almost certainly can wreck the format as well!

          • Phil Bowles

            The difference is, an “EtB” effect on a planeswalker or artifact is all that that card’s doing; that’s not true of a creature.

            Comparisons with Jace are spurious – a one-card Isochron Scepter+Brainstorm would be broken as well, and that’s before you add Boomerang and cantripping.. Jace’s power has nothing at all to do with his being a planeswalker and everything to do with him simply having overpowered abilities, just as nothing about Umezawa’s Jitte implies that equipment is fundamentally a powerful card type. It’s just a card in a historically underpowered category that the designers pushed too far to compensate for its intrinsic weakness.

            Planeswalkers can be dangerous, but no moreso than artifacts with equivalent abilities, and they come with more downsides (in particular, limits on how frequently their – abilities can be used – one reason for Jace’s sheer power is that he can use a 0 or + ability indefinitely and be strong, something true of very few PWs). If you had to tick up Birthing Pod after each activation, so that could only be used every other turn (not even counting damage that reduces loyalty) that would never see play either.

            As for Liliana, killing creatures and forcing discard, even as a repeatable effect, is nothing insurmountable in any format – it’s not even close to Jace’s card advantage. People bracket the two walkers together because they’re the only two routinely used in eternal formats, but Liliana’s a huge power drop down from Jace. Recursive creatures and tokens are supported in every Standard format – the former more than ever now that Wizards is replacing playable Animate Dead effects with larger numbers of recursive creatures. Never mind undying or the original, drastically overpowered anti-Liliana design for Siege Rhino, Liliana wouldn’t be out of line in a Standard format running Flamewake Phoenix (which beats both modes).

          • John Wayne

            First of all, the “EtB” isn’t ALL a planeswalker is doing… it’s just that instead of a body like on a creature (though some planeswalkers can even give you those)… you have a thing giving you other effects on later turns. Now, you can kill a planeswalker after it gives you an ability… but at the very least it gives you life-gain because your opponent has to attack it and it often “eats” something like a Hero’s Downfall or whatever from your opponent’s hand. At that point, it’s almost exactly like a creature with a 187 that quickly gets doom bladed.

            Sure, if an artifact had multiple abilities and even threatened to win the game with an ultimate like Jace’s… it COULD definitely be as strong as Jace was.

            But really? That’s not the nature of an artifact…. it IS the nature of a planeswalker.

            Most planeswalkers sit on the table and give you good effects turn-after-turn AND even have ultimates that freaking win the game if you can’t deal with them? THAT IS A PLANESWALKER. And don’t tell me it isn’t because we have a few planeswalkers that work a little bit differently… because when we see something like Sarkhan the Mad we sorta don’t know what to think of it at first because its abilities are so wonky compared to what we think of when we think of planeswalkers.

            Finally, I LOVED the Unsummon on Jace. I used that ability quite a lot, thanks! Don’t tell me Jace wasn’t mean to go down in loyalty!
            And, by the way, Ajani Vengeant is one of my favorite planeswalkers and you often only really wanted to use his + ability to control your opponent’s board (ideally on one of their lands) and it often felt a little bad to have to use a Lightning Helix and tick him down. I’ve easily ultimated that Ajani more than any other planeswalker and it always felt great. Ajani, Mentor of Heroes ONLY has + abilities that aren’t the ultimate (and the ultimate is sorta stupid)… so it’s sorta definitely meant to go up. Like, completely and totally. Ashiok at three mana tends to like going up and work towards the ultimate. It literally can’t do anything except for go up when you first play it because the – demands you’ve used the +. Since it doesn’t actually protect itself the turn it comes down… that means you’re mostly trying to use it in a deck that’s pretty good at making sure it won’t be getting hit and that tends to make it a card you can very often just work towards the ultimate if you like. That’s how it was designed… to go up. You can’t tell me that Chandra Ablaze was designed to throw on the table at 6 mana and use THAT minus ability! Chandra Nalaar was one of the first planeswalkers made and would even come with a subset of cards that asked for her plus ability to be used and, even more, could come down and be very close to her ultimate from the start. It was designed to plus and threaten ultimate. Chandra, Pyromaster? Again, doesn’t even have a minus that isn’t the ultimate. Elspeth, Knight-Errant has no minus abilites that aren’t the ultimate. Garruk Wildspeaker was also one of the initial planeswalkers released and threatened to overrun the very next turn after it came into play… which strongly suggests that it was meant to plus before it won you the game. Garruk, Apex Predator has a good minus ability… but it doesn’t cost 7 mana because the designers thought that was a good rate for killing an opponent’s creature and then having a dude on the table that couldn’t use that same ability on the next turn. It has two plus abilities that we’re paying for with the minus being a sweet extra option that was meant to be used for when the 3/3 deathtouch guy it can create with a plus isn’t enough of a board presence because maybe your opponent has something like a Stormbreath Dragon that wouldn’t care about it. It was meant to be +’d. Garruk, Caller of the Beasts’ draw was the plus to fill up your hand and when you used that one ability once it was often enough to swing a game. We pay for THAT plus. Gideon, Champion of Justice doesn’t have a nonultimate minus ability. Jace Beleren was trashed by many at first because the minus was quite overlooked and it was instead seen as a Howling Mine that could hopefully ultimate for a win. Notice how most all of the first run of planeswalkers seem to be painfully obviously made to plus and then ultimate? Jace, Memory Adept doesn’t even have a minus that isn’t the ultimate. Jace, the Mind Sculptor is Jace, the Mind Sculptor… but I actually think the unsummon was probably thought to be even more valuable than most would want to think when it was designed and less obviously wants to plus than many of the other planeswalkers out there. Koth of the Hammer was most certainly meant to plus. The minus obviously wasn’t going to work very well on him the turn you play him, assuming he comes down at a reasonable time… and then the ultimate was amazing and threatened to be used after only one more activation of the +. Liliana of the Dark Realms would be a very bad card if it was meant to use the minus the turn it came down and kill itself, if we again assume it was coming down early in the game and “on time.” Liliana of the Dark Realms was meant to plus. Narset Transcendant is another that has a minus that likely won’t even be an option the turn you play the card… and like some others, has an ultimate that it can threaten pretty soon after. It’s meant to plus. Nissa Revane only has plus non-ultimates. Nissa, Worldwaker only has plus non-ultimates. Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker was obviously designed to basically be a dragon with haste thanks to its plus. If there was any doubt then you could see that it was also made to threaten an early ultimate to encourage the use of its plus… and that ultimate encourages an aggressive deck which suits the plus and not a control deck that would suit the minus. Sorin, Solemn Visitor is meant to plus early in a deck with a lot of random dudes maybe even lingering souls tokens… and the ultimate threatens to come soon after. The minus seems to exist only for the dire spots where your weenie deck doesn’t have any weenies to work with. Tibalt, the fiend-blooded can’t even use a minus ability until after using the plus multiple times. I definitely don’t think Venser was designed with an idea that people would actually want to use the minus to alpha strike right after playing it and instead was seen as a card that would probably be +’d multiple times with value 187 creatures and I don’t think Stonehorn Dignitary existed at the same time by accident. If so, it was meant to be +’d. And Xenagos, like quite a few others now also doesn’t even have a minus that isn’t the ultimate.

            Now, that was very long… but the reason it was very long is because you’re completely wrong about the idea that “very few” planeswalkers haven’t been designed with the idea of using a 0 or + ability over-and-over. you were COMPLETELY wrong. Completely. Wrong.

          • Phil Bowles

            As I said, very few PWs have only + and 0 abilities – at length, you’ve just named 11 candidates, most something of a stretch as they do have viable – abilities. Come Origins, over 60 PWs will have been printed.

            There’s a very good mechanical reason why this is so – a PW with only + and 0 abilities is just a permanent you get to activate every turn; mechanically that’s just a modal artifact that’s easier to kill. It’s the tension between + and – abilities that defines what a planeswalker is. As someone I know commented on the new Gideon, “I thought they’d learned their lesson about 1-mana planeswalkers with Deathrite Shaman” – in other words, a modal card that gets to use any of its abilities every turn isn’t really what a PW is for; plenty of permanents are modal. The PWs designed to be used this way are basically designs that are aiming to be viable by emulating more powerful card types instead of doing what PWs are intended to do. Using planeswalkers designed to circumvent the drawbacks of being planeswalkers as examples to demonstrate that PWs are intrinsically powerful is like using Rancor – an aura explictly designed to circumvent the biggest drawback of being an aura – to demonstrate that creature enchantments are intrinsically powerful.

          • John Wayne

            “one reason for Jace’s sheer power is that he can use a 0 or + ability indefinitely and be strong, something true of very few PWs”

            THAT is what you said. I’m sure you realized that I would know this… that leads me to believe that you’re not even trying to have an argument with me and instead are now just trying to save face with random people on the internet that might read this.

            Guess what? No one cares and you’re not impressing anyone. I mean… seriously, dude?

          • John Wayne

            Also… you’re really bad at counting. I named quite a few more than 11 (Iike at least twice that number). I mean… seriously, dude? SERIOUSLY?

            And, for the record, I was actually being kind when I listed the planeswalkers with ones that may not want to use their minus abilities. For goodness sake, I didn’t even list a dude like Domri Rade – a planeswalker I more often than not only used the plus ability when I played it.

            The truth is that you’re still just completely wrong about presenting the idea that the majority of planeswalkers aren’t strong without using minus abilities. As I stated in the long reply to you above… it’s very clear that when planeswalkers were first introduced to us that many were designed with the idea of mostly using the plus ability and trying to ultimate… you know, BECAUSE YOU’RE COMPLETELY WRONG.

            Completely. Wrong. Completely and totally. Wrong.

          • Phil Bowles

            This is a bizarre conclusion, since I addressed this in my first sentence – yes, I paraphrased and pointing but that they have viable – abilities was a bit too loose . Given the context of a comparison with Jace (who certainly has a viable – ability), what I intended to say was that the – ability was a requirement for playing most PWs competitively.Apologies if this wasn’t clear from context. Your examples included some stretches because you focused wholly on cases where the +1 or 0 abilities were playable by themselves, which is not at all the same thing. Bow of Nylea would have a fully playable mode if it just tapped to give 3 life, but it would never have seen any competitive play if that was all it could do.

            .Very few PWs do meet this condition – especially the “be strong” component given that the context is cards strong enough to see play in Modern and Legacy, where the only Xenagos that’s playable is the enchantment.

          • John Wayne

            You’re one of those people that tries to change the conversation around until they feel they’re right again. I’m one of those persons that wants people to see how they really are. Look, you’re only fooling yourself and frustrating others.

            This part of the conversation is because you’re insisting that planeswalkers have “inherent weaknesses” and such… and then you even went on to write THIS paragraph as a response:

            “Planeswalkers can be dangerous, but no moreso than artifacts with equivalent abilities, and they come with more downsides (in particular, limits on how frequently their – abilities can be used – one reason for Jace’s sheer power is that he can use a 0 or + ability indefinitely and be strong, something true of very few PWs). If you had to tick up Birthing Pod after each activation, so that could only be used every other turn (not even counting damage that reduces loyalty) that would never see play either.”

            Now, how can you honestly deny that you’re not trying to suggest that one of the weaknesses of planeswalkers is that they can’t use their minus ability over-and-over again? The comparison to Jace suggests that Jace is only playable because he didn’t have to use his minus ability to be good whereas most planeswalkers rely on their minus ability. As I’ve hinted at, from the very beginning planeswalkers have NOT been designed to be kept in check by their minus abilities and much more than “very few” were made to try and go up… not down.

            I mean, just think about it… WHY ON EARTH DO PLANESWALKERS HAVE “ULTIMATES?” They weren’t given these “ultimates” as a joke… planeswalkers actual very nature IS TO GO UP in loyalty!

            That is the reality. You’re completely wrong. Completely. Wrong.

          • Djough Smytthe

            I’d say that Karn has made an impact on the format. Urzatron is quite a well-known deck.

  • Fakeromon .

    From now on, I’ll call enthralling victor just “Victor”, like, the name

  • JC

    Pleaseee pleaseeee god give me an elvish mystic, llanowar elves or better yet birds of paradise :< daddy needs his 1 drop mana generator :<<

    • cement dorado

      birds. birds!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Mario Migelini

      Based on the strength of the cards thus far, we’re probably getting Boreal Druid

      • Phil Bowles

        I can see getting a 2-mana common mana elf and a rare 1-mana one – Birds of Paradise seems plausible. Or we may get Sylvan Caryatid – quite a few decks use that and no elves.

        • Melissa Juice

          Caryatid again? Mmm. I do love that card.

  • Joshua Breau

    I think these planeswalkers are supposed to be a little weaker than the other depictions of them, because this is supposed to be as soon as their got their spark, though Chandra is looking pretty strong for a commander, or rather any multiplayer format. When I say strong I mean fun

    • cement dorado

      jace is kinda scary in tiny leaders and edh. I mean im already planning a deck around him

      • Joshua Breau

        Oh wow, I did not realize how powerful his last ability is, every spell cast mill 5 is great. That’s a win condition by itself.

        • cement dorado

          yea. ill for sure make a tiny leaders deck based off of this jace

          • John Wayne

            I think the biggest problem with this Jace for Tiny Leaders would be the rules making it so that you would have to be monoblue. That might just limit him too much at that point to make him better than even something like V-Clique or Thassa if we’re talking about a monochromatic deck. Mono-colored commanders are punished a lot in that format, I think, just because of their manacost and the limitations they place on you.

            I think the cards great… but I don’t think he’s a very good commander/leader.

          • cement dorado

            I think it can be pulled off and mono blue is really good. I would personally make the deck into a mill deck

          • Travoo Banks

            Maybe not have him be the commander but what about in a kami mill deck oranges makenzi turbo fog

        • Jazzyboy1

          His -3 is also sorcery-speed Snapcaster…

          The ultimate’s cool too though I guess :P

  • Mario Migelini

    Just preordered five boxes as soon as I saw the reprint of Meteorite. Card should be banned but I’ll continue to abuse it as long as it’s legal in Modern and Legacy. Now we just need Storm Crow and this set will be epic

    • BlahBlahBlahBla

      Nice call, bro. It’s worth it just for the Yoked Oxs alone!

    • Arcanis The omnipotent

      I hope your joking.

      • Ryx

        I don’t think they are joking. They are probably just trolls, and bad ones at that, like 1/3 defender for 2BG bad

        • Ryx

          no that is still too good. They are just banding bad.

          • richardshort2001

            banding is good, just overly complicated.

          • Ryx

            exactly, it is bad because it is overly complicated. If it takes a judge five minutes to explain the process of banding and then another 8 minutes for the players to makes decisions that result in no change in board state or damage dealt because of a fog spell, that just kills any chance of having fun in that game. I would rather watch a control mirror match of “draw then pass” for 50 minutes.

          • Captain Sunshine

            so “Banding Bad” means we are good trolls just overly complicated so everyone thinks we suck… Point made!

    • Captain Sunshine

      Maritime Guard too, I mean 1/3 should be about 3 mana, but I get it out for 2!?

      • Mario Migelini

        When people criticize my Maritime Guard deck and say Maritime Guards die to Lightning Bolt, I just laugh and say, “Bob does too!”

  • welan

    I ask yesterday an evaluation of the new planeswalker cards for pricing . But instead got an debate on the classification of the card. I am not searching if it will be use in legacy , modern or whatever . I am an edh player . As such I can wait for the price to drop on some of these cards. I was just wondering if the flavor will keep the cards price high. I know none of those card are relevant for competitive format. My hope is that they drop on the range of between 5 to 10 dollar by the time we are in the final set of zendikar.

  • OmegaCloud24

    Nissa may suck now but if BfZ brings back landfall and land ramp like the older Zendikar than shes guna be fun to play and shes an instand draw once flipped or she plays a land. Shes guna be fine to use. Im sure people will figure out wut to do with her.

  • Captain Sunshine

    Found this floating around the internet, anyone know if it’s a hoax or not?

    • BlahBlahBlahBla

      Mark Bagelwater told me personally that this is a real card.

    • Stef

      Lol clearly fake as Bagel Boys were not yet introduced in FRF. I do believe we will see it in Origins though. Very flavorful tribe btw. I mean, cheese, chili, various seeds/grains you name it.

    • Stef

      Saw this sweet card recently as well.

      • Captain Sunshine

        Wait! Chuck Norris get the pretty foily FNM promo?! Because one person at the event gets him out and everyone there immediately loses. Chuck would win so much he could build his own deck and revolt against you. Where is justice?!

        • Montague

          Chuck Norris is obviously a Walker… A Walker Texas Ranger. He summons the player as a planes-walker card, and you’d best increase your loyalty when he looks at you or he might have to… “unsummon” you.

          He’d be blue, so you could discard force of will to him. Plus, only he is worthy to own the mana color with the great Storm Crow. Jace’s memory loss occurred when he tried to copy some of Chuck’s power; the result, however, was Mind Sculptor – a superior, Roundhouse-infused Jace.

    • Melissa Juice

      Did Tim & Eric design this one?

    • BandolfTheBlue

      was it on the same site I found this one, because if it is then it is for surely real

  • da

    Gideon is so busted compared to the other planeswalkers.

    W

    2/1

    2w: Gideon gains indestructible until the end of turn

    If Gideon and atleast two other creatures attack flip him.

    —-

    +2 Up to one target creature attacks gideon

    +1 Until your next turn, target creature gains indestructible. Uptap it.

    +0 Gideon becomes an indestructible 4/4 w/ prevent all damage that would be dealt to it this turn.

    starting counters 3.

    Very easy to flip compared to the other ones, will def probably see play.

    • gabriel

      it is broken imo… i definitely need a playset

    • Dr. Burn Crow

      Gideon, Facebreaker. Damn fine cup of planes walker.

    • John Wayne

      Jace still wins. Ojutai. Ojutai’s Command. Jace. Valorous Stance. THAT looks so much better than hope to cast Savannah Lions on turn 1 and then Raise the Alarm on turn 2 just to get a Loxodon Smiter that can be attacked due to only 3 loyalty or planeswalker making your 1/1 token an indestructible blocker… because, um, we’re a white weenie deck that wants to block now… or something.

      Seriously, Jace is fine. But WotC obviously pushed Jace again (the Spell Mastery mechanic even exists in the set and promises to like Jace too!)… and they did a good job of making Gideon look really cool while actually having a bunch of abilities that sorta fight all against each other to make him quite a bit of incoherent nonsense in the end.

      • da

        You are missing a key fact… it’s a planeswalker for 1 mana. Sure at best it’s an indestructible 4/4 with good tribal (it stays a solider and a human while in planeswalker form)… but you only need to waste 1 mana on it. It’s far easier to get and flip than the other 4 walkers.

        If they want to waste a kill spell while it’s human, you still win because you only spent 1 mana. Same goes for burn in planeswalker form.

        Turn 3, it flips, you play another spell with your 3 mana open (maybe a creature), then use it’s +1 to make your other 1/1 into a blocker so it doesn’t die instantly (they can still use burn or bounce… but again, it’s a 1 drop, total waste).

        ….. also “just to get a Loxodon Smiter” That’s a pretty neeto card.

        I ain’t sayin’ every deck should run this, it ain’t no swagtusk, but hell with the way they keep depowering standard with each coming set, it’s a pretty darn good card.

        • John Wayne

          It most certainly is not a planeswalker for one man. It’s a Savannah Lions for one mana… and it only turns into a planeswalker if it is able to survive a combat where it is attacking with 2 other creatures. Let’s pretend your opponent has some random blocker on that turn… well, you have to use the indestructible ability just to have the dude survive (it IS only a 2/1) and at that point it cost four mana and multiple other conditions. Now, let’s pretend you do flip this card… how good are these abilities really? And even if you are a weenie deck that likes the idea of turning your 2/1 into a 4/4… it ISN’T actually a 4/4! It’s a creature that now can be killed by your opponent via something like combat damage. Loxodon Smiter can’t be attacked by a Watchwolf and killed… this “smiter” could.

          Look, the card has some potential… but I think most people are overrating the card in a lot of ways is all. To be honest, what has me the most excited is something like Deathmist Raptor or other sweet cards with deathtouch because deathtouch dudes tend to be good attackers if we want to flip this card and then the +1 on a deathtouch dude is kinda spiffy… but even there I’m not sure this lil’ Gideon offers Deathmist Raptor enough to want to go that route when Deathmist Raptor is already so good at doing so many things anyways. Having said that… I do like me a Dromoka’s Command…

          • Ethan Firebringer

            You all seem to be forgetting that when Gideon makes them attack, he goes to 5 loyalty. Also, his abilities as creature and planeswalker are pretty solid. one mana 2/1 is still pretty good. He can give himself indestructible for 3, which is alright I guess. He has battalion flip after damage, so you can get him to at minimum 4 at second main, untapping and giving indestructible to one of the creatures that helped trigger his flip. Then you have a solid blocker for your 4 loyalty planeswalker. If you choose to go the route of forcing an attack, a white weenie deck probably has a throw-away blocker on the field to keep him at 5. And, as far as destruction, the only way I’ve found to get rid of Gideons as creatures are cards like Turn to Frog and Turn and Burn. Prevent all damage and indestructible. That’s a pretty good 4/4. And remember, that untap and indestructible is almost always going to be after combat. Attack first, then grab a blocker. Nobody out there doesn’t want an indestructible blocker.

    • Captain Sunshine

      Hmm arguably this may be better than the bagel boy…

  • Aarhg

    Bah, why did they have to make Gideon that good? It’s not even funny, lol.

  • TheFace

    Confirmed for origins! Get wrecked Chandra!

    • Dr. Burn Crow

      OH YEAH ITS SQUIRTLE TIME!

  • Alex Lopez Melero

    Really?

    • Melissa Juice

      What’s the problem?

  • BlahBlahBlahBla

    One really nice aspect of these new planeswalkers is being able to have one flipped and one unflipped on the field at the same time. Less dead cards in hand when you run multiples!

    • John Wayne

      Sorta… but most of these characters would be much more useful in that regard if the flipping was a “may” and optional.

  • xxxx

    got to try new gideon it in legacy death and taxes. maybe i’ll even add 2 eiganjo castles :D

  • Arcanis The omnipotent

    looks like boros got a new toy (Gideon)

    • Evan Lewis

      Also white weenies is super viable now.

  • Captain Sunshine

    Anyone know when the orange walker will be announced. I’m also pretty hyped for the purple one.

  • koylucumert

    so there arent any flip spoilers yet except 5 walker creatures. if this is the case so how will it be? the flips will in the place of rares or will there be an additional flip zone like there was in innistriad. if so shouldnt we have given the spoiler of at least 1 common flip? if they will replace the rares, then it will suck in draft

    • koylucumert

      the flips will replace* the rares

      • Dr. Burn Crow

        There are also only mythic rare flips, so draft won’t be so bad.

        • koylucumert

          what i mean is everyone will see what mhytic we get and its a disadvantage

          • Chestnut_Baron

            Packs with flips might come with the support cards like in Innistrad. Alternatively, sleeve up.

            Although, in draft…

          • John Wayne

            It’s not all disadvantage. There’s actually a lot of ADVANTAGE to letting the table know what you’re drafting. Most decent drafters very rarely hate-draft and aren’t trying to fight over cards either… so if those around you know that you just drafted Nissa then it can actually be quite advantageous as they just decide they won’t touch green and it’s all yours.

    • Phil Bowles

      It was confirmed some time ago that the planeswalkers are the only dual-faced cards in the set. There’s no reason for that to matter in draft.

  • Dr. Burn Crow

    Ok, now gimme a black and a blue legendary. GO!

    • Montague

      Sure, but he’ll be an overcosted, limited-only bomb.

  • Guest

    Guys, we are getting the Raven Man finally.

    • Dr. Burn Crow

      But what will he do? Is he human…or…is he…dancer?

      • Noatzon

        “Slow clap” almost perfect, you just forget the “a”.

        • Dr. Burn Crow

          No love for The Killers song? For shame.

          • Noatzon

            The Killers one of my favorite bands C: You just forgot an “a” as in “is he… a dancer?” C:

          • Dr. Burn Crow

            The song is are we human or are we dancer

          • Noatzon

            It’s “Human” isn’t it? From the album “Day and Age”? I really need to listen to it again C:

    • Ryū

      Yes, either him or Kothophed.

      • Guest

        It is a possibility that we could be getting both. They have the art for both characters, which means that they will be cards.

        • Ryū

          Both would definitely be better than one.

        • Fakeromon .

          Exactly what I was going to say :-)

  • Ryx

    Does anyone else notice that the SDCC walkers are labeled as Mythic and not promos. That seems kinda off.

  • Mike Thomas

    New cad spoiled, for all those who love elves.

    • Big David

      Oh great, another elf lord. Where is my damn bear lord?!

      • Gix

        bears will get their lord when they start flying, or have first strike, or death touch, or anything that will make them relevant.

        • Chestnut_Baron

          Like all those pesky flying first strike elves. Maybe the bear lord could give bears flying and make them relevant?

          Personally, I’m all for minor tribe support. Bring on the crocodile and antelope lords!

          • Big David

            Crocodiles would be dope. Like a Green Red crocodile shaman lord with devour 2 and other crocks get +2/+0 and devour 1. Then you could feed your antelopes to the crocs. Delicious flavor. Me, I want my bear lord to be an ancient wizened studio-ghibli looking motherfucker with pay GG to give giant growth to any bear.

          • Ethan Ford Ford

            There is a bear with flash….

        • Captain Sunshine

          When the bagel lord comes…

          • Ryx

            …bagel lord?

    • Phil Bowles

      Elf tribal back in Standard’s nice, but it’s a shame he’s not Collectable. And they won’t have multiple elf lords in the set, I suspect, so no Elvish Archdruid. He’s fine as a relevant body that pumps your other elves and gives a Wingmate Roc life bonus, but I’m not sure what the point is of the recent trend to give aggressive green creatures reach (see also Bassara Tower Archer, Avatar of the Resolute). Love the art.

      • ross

        The not gettable with company is probably on purpose, Elf spam would be abit too crazy if their lord was essentially could be fetched along with another elf

      • John Wayne

        Knowing they were making a “dragon set” and knowing that most random green creatures aren’t going to have flying they keyworded “reach” on to some of the ones they wanted to have a little more of a push as kinda just a add-on. It’s just the kind of thing that design does when they make sets to let Standard Constructed have some degree of checks and balances going on.

      • Lokhan Ren

        I’m totally making a standard elf deck. ELVES ALL THE WAY

  • Ethan Ford Ford

    I keep forgetting raven dude is going to be a planeswalker right or are they going to wait for the set that’s all about Liliana’s plane for it….my favorite plane….

    • 1) We don’t even know if Raven Man is a ‘walker.
      2) Even if he is we wouldn’t get a Planeswalker card in this set because there isn’t enough room for that many ‘walkers.
      3) We were on Dominaria for most half of Magic’s existence, we probably won’t be going back for a very long time.
      4) If we do get Raven Man he will almost certainly be a legendary creature.

      • Aarhg

        This art from one of the latest Uncharted Realms looks suspiciously like it could fit in a card frame.

        • Yes, as a legendary creature which was my final point.

          • Aarhg

            Yup. Makes pretty good sense.

          • Also since we got Dwynen there will certainly be a cycle of non-flipping legends.

          • Lokhan Ren

            Yepp

        • Stef

          Well a lot of cards have art that doesn’t fit the frame at all. Often you will find that only half the artwork is actually displayed on a card. Not as an exact example, but more as a proof that Wizards will do stuff like this, take a look at Kalastria Highborn and then look at the GD promo. Half the artwork has been cut.
          So I wouldn’t rely on artwork, to indicate whether or not we would see a certain character as a card. Wizards will fit the artwork into the frame if they have to.
          But reading the story, learning that she never did kill the Raven Man, there is enough background for a legendary creature card, I believe.

          • That’s how they used to do promos. Not regular cards, just promos.

          • Stef

            “Not as an exact example, but more as a proof that Wizards will do stuff like this”.

          • They stopped doing stuff like that, that’s the problem with your logic.

          • Stef

            What are you talking about? Have you checked every card in every set, to see if the artwork has been cut to fit the borders of the card? I kinda doubt it. But thanks for trying.

          • I am talking about the fact that the last time that Wizards, as I recall, did cards that either weren’t the entire piece was Zendikar block. Have you looked through all the arts to prove otherwise? Have you even thought about what WotC would do with those art pieces? I have, with every set they would do an Arcana featuring those arts. But thanks for trying.

          • Stef

            Yes I have seen several cards featuring artwork that was only part of the original piece. That’s why I feel confident in saying, that artwork appearing as if it would fit a card, doesn’t necessarily mean it was created with that purpose in mind.
            As I just saw an use for the art piece, I find it strange you want me to think other uses as well. 1 is not enough?
            What are you trying to prove, by being persistent? That this is a card we haven’t seen, based on your personal feeling? Or perhaps you are just trolling? Bring some proof please. Until then I think I’ll stick with my own opinion on this matter.

          • And what arts are those? Can you show me the full arts? Forgive for not just going with the word of a stranger on the internet,

            We all already know that Raven Man is a card and this is the art for him. I am being persistent because you haven’t shown me anything as actual proof, just words. So like you said: Bring some proof please. Until then I think I’ll stick with my own opinion on this matter.

          • Stef

            lol proof of what? I haven’t made any claims? I think you lost track of the subject here. Go read my first post and stop trolling.
            On the contrary I argued that a piece of artwork with a background story, didn’t necessarily mean it was meant for a card. So you bring the proof of otherwise. My first answer did go to another user as I recall, so I never asked you to believe anything, whoever you are.

          • Every piece of artwork that has been in an article from the MTG Articles has gotten a card in recent history. You still haven’t shown me proof of any cards in this set or after Zendikar block that have had a significant portion of that cards art being cut off. That was our conversation that stemmed from your comment based on the art from Raven Man which started by saying that they had cards only had half of the art. So, if you’d like to inform me of how I was off subject I would love to know.

          • Aarhg

            I get what you’re saying, but the composition of the above artwork tells me that this has a very high shot of being on the card.

        • Bram de Lorijn

          He reminds me of Urza

      • pain42

        actually there were six walkers last year, five and Garruk, Apex Predator, so there could easily be room for an extra, however I feel like if there were to be a sixth walker it would be a character that’s more relevant to the upcoming storyline in BFZ, but who there isn’t room for in that block (since i’m expecting that we’re gonna get a lot of walker reprints in that set as well)

        • Adding an extra ‘walker that is strictly related to Lili would mean that they would have to add more ‘walkers to be related to the other 4. That’s why there isn’t enough room.

          • Goyfs R Us

            Not necessarily, and he may not even appear in this set.

          • Goyfs R Us

            Also a lot of the comments He made to Liliana lead me to believe, he is a walker, of course this is just speculation.

          • I’m starting this by saying that I’m answering both of your comments.
            I never said that he couldn’t be or that I didn’t think that he wasn’t a ‘walker. All I said is that we don’t know, as we almost never know until Wizards confirms it. With the fact that there are already 2 non-planeswalker legendaries spoiled it’s pretty safe to assume that the Raven Man will appear, especially with the fact that we have his art given to us. He probably could only ever show up here so this is the only chance that we may ever get to see him in the near future. As for the fact that even if he was a planeswalker, he would only show up as a legend because there is only so much space for design when making a rare planeswalker, assuming that they keep with the cycle.

          • Goyfs R Us

            As I said this is just speculation, I was not saying you where wrong only that their are other possibilities, it is also possible that Liliana’s brother Josu or Kothophed fill the black legendary slot, although Kothophed is more likely to be Mythic.

          • pain42

            and i didn’t say that i thought it would be the raven man did i? honestly i agree with you that the raven man is an unlikely candidate for walker-hood, at least as of this set, especially with the legendary creature cycle of characters related to the PWs already spoiled.

            what i was saying was that if there were to be a sixth walker it would more likely be a character that has more relevance to the next set, Battle for Zendikar, and who has some relation to the main five, but who there wasn’t room for in BfZ. (personally i’m thinking along the lines of Bolas as a possibility here, but there could be someone else, ie Ugin, or someone new that’s relevant but we haven’t seen yet)

          • And I didn’t say that say that it had to be Raven Man either. I’m just making a point that there isn’t enough room for a 6th ‘walker in the set. With how crowded this set is feeling already with all of the legends that we’re expecting and the ‘walkers that we already have. Not to mention the fact that they already said that they said there are 5 in this set, not 6. I’m not even going to get into the fact that at this point in time in the 5’s lives only 1 has met Bolas.

      • Ethan Ford Ford

        That my point I must know also if they said he’s a walker but made him a creature hat would be a problem

      • Ethan Ford Ford

        Also if they do another return I want two other planes first visited

  • Lokhan Ren

    So…
    Chandra is burn
    Jace is mill
    Gideon is awesome
    Nissa is making big beefy forests and elementals
    Liliana is doin graveyard stuff
    Pretty a-ok

    • “Gideon is awesome”. LOL. Good observation.

      • Lokhan Ren

        That’s all I see when I see Gideon

  • MysteriousPerson

    New card. The feels.

    Pia and Kiran Nalaar 2RR

    When Pia and Kiran Nalaar enters the battlefield, put two 1/1 colorless Thopter artifact creature tokens with flying onto the battlefield.

    2R, Sacrifice an artifact: Pia and Nalaar deals 2 damage to target creature or player.

    Artist: Eric Deschamps

    • Aarhg

      And it’s a 2/2 for people wondering. Not bad.

    • twisted mettle

      absolutely lovin’ it!

  • Alex Lopez Melero

    Seriously? With collected company and elves?

    • Aarhg

      Garruk’s Packleader sends its regards.

    • Melissa Juice

      Holy poop.

    • Goyfs R Us

      Collected Company doesn’t work the way you think it does.

    • Ryx

      wait, is that a sliver?

      • Melissa Juice

        Nah. just a sliver-ish elemental, probably.

        • cement dorado

          it should be a sliver that gives other slivers : landfall ~whenever a land enters the battlefield add one mana of any color to your manapool

          • BlahBlahBlahBla

            Lotus Sliver? :p I like this..

          • Travoo Banks

            I just thought of collected company in a modern slivers deck… I’m on it

          • Melissa Juice

            No. No it should not.
            lol

          • cement dorado

            yes it should. :*

    • Lokhan Ren

      The standard elf deck is real dude!!!
      I’M SO FREAKING EXCITED FOR THIS SET I LOVE ELVES
      also the flavor text is amazing

    • Ryū

      Pretty cool.

    • twisted mettle

      *nods*
      ouch

    • The Pudge

      Collected Company…. yes!

      Elves? …. Nah. It blows.

  • Blake

    Pia and Kiran Nalaar lends credence to my belief the black Legend will be the Raven Man. Thoughts?

    • Ryū

      My hope is that each planeswalker ends up with two legendary creatures associated with them, since Chandra had her parents and the mage captain, and Liliana had Raven Man and Kothophed. The art pieces from their Uncharted Realms makes me believe this may be the case, but we’ll see.

      • Ryū

        Though Liliana also had her jacked-up-on-death-magic brother Josu.

      • cement dorado

        if you are right we are getting such a legendary creature heavy set and im so excited about it!!!!!!!!!!!

        • Ryū

          I hope I’m right as well.

  • Goyfs R Us

    Dat Gideon Doh.

  • BlahBlahBlahBla

    The flavor in this set is outrageous! So excited about this!

  • Gideon Jura

    Maybe a Mono-White Voltron with Kytheon/Gideon

  • Looks sweet with Painter.

    • Lokhan Ren

      Flavor text says that Jace is a telepath…
      cool

      • aethros

        should be obvious, based on magic and flavors that call him a mind mage.
        also obvious if you follow the story.

    • Noatzon

      Play this and that card witch forces you to empty al your lands + redirect effect + painter XD Random overcomplicated combo V:

      • Marvin Sürig

        You know that painter’s servant paints all cards even lands to the color which means this and Painter servant = When you draw a card your opponent enters an infinity loop until he loose the game by deckout.

        • Nitrodamus

          Sorry, this intentionally specifies nonland. If your opponent reveals any land, even if it has been painted by the Painters Servant, the combo will stop dead.

        • You paint a card, but it is still a land. No autowin.

    • Dustin Weeks

      this would be fun in standard with altar of the brood in a strong draw mill shell

    • BalthasarH

      Combine with Dark Deal for a hillarious amount of mill.

    • JEREMY KUUSISTO

      They both have to be nonland cards

  • Lokhan Ren

    I’m curious to know: What is your favorite mtg artist, and card by that artist?

    • Guest

      Karla Ortiz and my favorite card by her is Ghoulcaller Gisa.

      The new Liliana arts she made are amazing as well.

    • anon

      definetly Nils Hamm! favorite card is baleful strix!

      • BlahBlahBlahBla

        Nils Hamm is amazing!!

    • Aarhg

      That’s a tough choice. I like Dave Allsop’s style though, I wish Wizards could bring him back for one of the next sets.
      Then there’s Swanland, Guay, Nielsen, Hamm, Walker, Reynolds, and a bunch more that I’m forgetting at the moment.

    • BlahBlahBlahBla

      I’ve thought about this alot. It’s definitely a tie between John Avon and Rebecca Guay. I have, i believe, every basic by John Avon and a playset of each of Guay’s cards (two playsets of PTE promo ;D)

      • BlahBlahBlahBla

        Gah.. So many great artists. Almost forgot Raymond Swanland.

      • Dr. Burn Crow

        JOHN AVON FOR LIFE!!

    • Looper

      Idk about favorite artist but this is my favorite art

  • Dr. Burn Crow

    So. When are we getting dinosaurs in Magic? They teased it. I want it. They have a plane and everything. Stop teasing me, Wizards. Give me dino spells and more viashino.

    • Soren Szilver

      there it is

      • Dr. Burn Crow

        Need more. More dinosaurs

        • Soren Szilver

          your welcome:

          *insert creatures with changeling here*

          • Dr. Burn Crow

            MORE!!!! FULL SET AND A MOVIE!

          • Soren Szilver

            the movie is currently in theaters (jurassic world), and i don’t think wizards will ever release a set of only 1 creature type (although dragon of tarkir was impressively close)

          • Dr. Burn Crow

            Well I mean more primal world style, with dinosaurs and viashino and some other types that fit into that primordial themes.

          • cement dorado

            you know what I need. I need spider tribal

          • Aethros666

            would only really work with green and red, maybe a few in other colors

          • Dr. Burn Crow

            Not if you do it right. Look at The Mimeoplasm.

          • Hafglop

            This can be genius… A plane with ancient behemoths ruling all over the place… Well, if they made blue dragons, they can make everything. It can be really interesting! Too bad the upcoming sets will be around the five planswalkers’ stories and about zendikar…

          • Dr. Burn Crow

            Exactly! Someone else gets it!

    • Melissa Juice

      They do? What plane is that? Sounds fun.

      • Ryū

        Yes, beautiful Muraganda, scenic home of The Mimeoplasm, complete with the saurid warriors, tropical elves, the scarwitches, the fang druids, and of course, dinosaurs.

        • Melissa Juice

          Well, hell, where’s the block?!

  • niz-mizzet

    who else think we’ll end up having a blank’s ignition because I think it would be kind of strange if we didn’t

  • Captain Sunshine

    Woah, can we have the rest of the walkers parents?

    • Melissa Juice

      lol
      No.

  • Dr. Burn Crow

    Please don’t let Raven Man suck.

  • Fakeromon .

    Guys, look at the description of Infernal Scarring :(
    Ob Nixilis is gone…

    • Abid D. Alexander

      lilliana is killing off her demons

      • Fakeromon .

        I don’t think Ob is one of liliana’s demons

        EDIT yeah, you’re right

    • pain42

      you mean the flavor text? if that’s what you mean i’m very confused how you’re inferring that Ob is dead from that card…

      also, to Abid D. Alexander, Liliana has 4 demons, Griselbrand, Kothophed, and two that as of yet have not been named (ie Not Ob Nixilis)

      • Fakeromon .

        Yes I meant the flavor text

        I said that because Ob was the one scarred as a demon (although it was with a hedron)

        • pain42

          honestly i think you’re misinterpreting what that flavor is talking about. it says “marked by a demon” as in the tats that they guy pictured has on his back. pretty sure it’s meant to be a reference to liliana, as the glowing markings on her face are a result of her four deals with demons

      • Drew

        Ob Nixilis IS one of the demons though..

        • pain42

          Okay, prove it. Prove that he is one of Liliana’s four deals. I’m perfectly willing to accept it if you have evidence to back you up.

          • cement dorado

            fact. ob nixilis is probably not one of her demons cuz he human.

  • Ethan Ford Ford

    I want a set with every underused tribal to get at least some help my spike deck needs more spikes

  • Raven Man

    Raven Man 1B
    Legendary Creature – Human Rogue
    3BB: Target creature’s controller sacrifices it.
    When ~ dies, put a 1/1 black Bird creature token with flying and deathtouch onto the battlefield.
    2/3

    • Djough Smytthe

      So, a creature that’s over the curve with “3BB: Destroy target creature regardless of whether or not it has indestructible” and that creates a flyer when it dies? Woah. Not happening.

    • cement dorado

      get rid of the 3BB and make it like this
      when ~ dies put a 1/1 black bird creature token named The Raven.
      once the raven dies return “the rven man from your grave yard to your hand

  • Nikolai Weichbrod

    doesn’t pia and kiren remind you of Anax and Cymede picturewise

  • Looper

    I really want a Read the Bones reprint with some cool Lilliana related art. But I know it won’t happen because she has nothing to do with the scry mechanic.

    • Jonathan Mueller

      Maybe if it gets handwaved as an acquired vision through one of her pacts with those demons?

  • Lokhan Ren

    I think this is the closest we will get to bolt.

    • Ed Cote

      I just wish it went to the dome. Too many burn spells these days don’t give us the option, which is kinda the point of playing burn over black removal.

      • Hafglop

        The point is also to get much cheaper removal

  • Lokhan Ren

    Time to get more conversation going, here we go: Of the Origins walkers, which is your favorite power wise, ans what is your favorite lore wise?

    • magicdai

      Power wise for me is jace or chandra, liliana is close, Gideon is too similar to his old versions for me and nissa is nissa…

      We can’t tell lore wise yet until all of the background stories have been shown

    • Ryū

      Power wise, definitely Jace for me. I love milling. Lore wise so far, Liliana, cuz Raven Man, Kothophed, and Bolas.

    • PopStarNîdalee

      PowerWise im gonna go for Nissa or liliana for the sole reason that they can flip the turn they come into the game. Nissa is a nice pw for a control strategy getting protection, getting some incredible card advantage and a wincon ult. Liliana is pretty cool in a reanimator style deck. Jace seems pretty killable and not that powerfull, i mean -3 is a snapcaster sorcery speed which for me isnt that powerfull, +1 seems rather poor and ult is quite cool, gotta admit that, it’s fairly easy to mill once you have done that, the pw seems worse than say narset imho, chandra is amazing lorewise but aside from her” you better end me fast” ultimate she seems pretty hard to flip and rather weak as a pw. Gideon actualy is quite nice, i usualy get dissapointed by gideons but here a vanilla 2/1 for 1 seems decent so when it can quickly turn into a 4/4 turn 3 or 4 its kinda cool, not realy exciting abilities, mostly of what we are used to with gideon but i find him cool

  • Dr. Burn Crow

    Viashino 5eva

  • Mh

    Kothophed looks legit

    • Ryū

      Big ol’ nasty flyin’ snake Satan

  • Honestly

    So we still have a chance for lili’s bro or raven man. Honestly hoping for the bro as he would be a nice addition for a zombie edh

    • Lokhan Ren

      We probably will. Kothophed is Liliana’s nemesis, while Chandra has her parents? I think we will be getting one nemesis and mentor for each of the planeswalkers.

      • Hafglop

        That can be genius! (If only it was officially anounced)

    • Ryū

      I think I’d prefer Raven Man, since he actually shows up more than once throughout Lili’s lifetime.

  • xSean

    languish, here is you damnation

    • Aarhg

      Hell yea, this is as good as it’s gonna get.

    • Hafglop

      Forget about damnation, think about Decree of Pain!

  • Ryū

    I love Kothophed, but I don’t know that I want to use him as a commander. High risk, high reward.

    • Ryot

      To quote the great Dark Confidant, “Greatness, at any cost”

      • Ryū

        This is true. “I’ll gladly pay you my soul for a hamburger today.”

  • Ryū

    After looking at the intro packs, I don’t think we’ll be getting any more legendary creatures in this set.

  • Vinícius de Camargo

    Charging Griffin: too bad costing 4 mana, too good costing less :/

    • Ed Cote

      Charging Griffon: aka “I’m drafting white so I might as well pick this”.

  • Ian Carlson

    Best flavor text in the entire set

    • What even is this comment?

      • pain42

        probably a failed picture post

        • Yeah, but we haven’t seen more than half the set.

  • Ed Cote

    Is Avaricious Dragon awesome or am I just a crazy gung-ho mono-red player?

    • cement dorado

      both

    • D

      I tested it not good especially when it gets killed after you discard your hand at your end step

      • Ryx

        If you played him turn four, how did you still have a hand of relevant spells?

        • Anonymous

          But anything that could be cast instant speed or any other creatures are still in hand. Even just having another land in hand is pretty relevant in the early-mid game. There are builds for him, but some people don’t have that ready. If you plan on running a red/blue counter-burn deck, he definitely shouldn’t be included. But if you plan on running a mono-red spell mastery deck or a red/black re-animation deck, go ahead. Depends on your playstyle.

    • 3dxcentric

      As a red player for many years, I can say there has never been a good red card since lightning bolt.

  • Scion of the Dragons

    kothophed i feel like should be so much better. he is going to be mediocre in commander and not great in limited and i dont see him being good in standard and much better things in modern

    • Dr. Burn Crow

      It’s all about card advantage, my boy. Counteract the life loss with lifeline, or just by hitting harder and faster then they do.

      • Anonymous

        Or you can splash him in an aggro green elf deck featuring Dwynen.

        • Dr. Burn Crow

          Ballsy. I like it.

    • Tzenmoroth

      He’ll win games in limited. That is all.

    • Kaiser

      He is phyrexian arena 6/6 with fly, good for control decks, demon decks and limited.

  • Dr. Burn Crow

    Guys. What if Raven Man is Bolas? Couldn’t planeswalkers formerly shapeshift? I dunno, just a random thought.

    • Leonardo

      Mind=Blown

    • Lokhan Ren

      You should go work at wizards and make that happen. If you do I will pay you in 100,000 monopoly dollars.

      • Dr. Burn Crow

        I wish I could. If Wizards would hire me, I’d sign up and make all my dreams come true.

    • Ethan Ford Ford

      I’m pretty sure he ain’t maybe a follower but that’s about it

    • Ryū

      Perhaps

    • EddieDeanofIgnorance

      According to the storyline of Shards of Alara, Bolas retains the ability to shapeshift. Although I suspect it isn’t as easy as it used to be.

      • Dr. Burn Crow

        BOOM! PLAUSIBILITY!

    • fi3ld 0f fir3

      damn it i was really hoping that they would add karn! just picture urza on one side and karn on the other

  • Ryū

    Honored Hierarch? Seems familiar…

    • EddieDeanofIgnorance

      As it should. So far, Renown seems to be a mechanic meant for use on cards that come from Bant. Honored Hierarch is Noble Hierach’s brother. Who somehow has access to all colors of Magic even though we’re led to believe that Gideon doesn’t ignite after the events of Shards of Alara…My Vorthos side cringes at the continuity issues (much like how Bolas had the orb he stole from the Myojin of Night’s Reach during the events of Time Spiral while on Tarkir a good millenium before the Mending took place). My Melvin side understands why they’ve done it this way.

      • Ryū

        Well yes, I am aware that renown is Bant related. I obviously know what Noble Hierarch is. I’m pretty Vorthos myself, but sometimes flavor has to take a backseat to mechanics.

        • Dr. Burn Crow

          Let’s not try to out-vorthos eachouther, gentlemen. It’s all good fun.

          • Ryū

            Storm Crow, God of Mediation.

  • Ryū

    Black has some serious backbone in this set.

  • Scion of the Rowan Tree

    A simic card?
    Could it be?
    No, no, no, it couldn’t.
    But, it could!
    SIMIC HUEHEUHEHUEHEEUEUEHEUEUEHEUEHEHEUEHEHEHUEHEHEUEHEHUEHEH

  • Dr. Burn Crow

    So, where is all this two colored legends chatter coming from? Is it just the art in the origin articles, or something MaRo has implied?

    • magicdai

      He stated in the article about the design of the set, it’s actually quite interesting

    • Ryū

      I’ve seen nothing about two colored legendary creatures, but MaRo said in his latest article that each of the ten planes in Origins would be tied to a corresponding color pair.

      • Dr. Burn Crow

        My mistake, I meant two legends per color, in addition to the transforming legends. So three legends per color, technically.

        Where is this talk of third legends coming from?

        • Ryū

          I’ve seen nothing of 3 legends talk. I said it would make sense for each walker to have a second legendary devoted to them, like Lili with Raven Man or Chandra with the Mage Captain, but I then second guessed myself after realizing that they each have more than that, like Liliana’s brother Josu.

        • Ryū

          Though it would be awesome to have an influx of new legends like that.

          • Dr. Burn Crow

            Amen, back to the Kamigawa days.

          • Ryū

            I can’t wait to see what horrifying force overtakes Kamigawa.

          • Dr. Burn Crow

            I believe her name is Vess, and she’s come to kill demons.

  • Craig

    Is it me or these blue cards look scary?

    • EddieDeanofIgnorance

      Not just you. I’m going to hate the person who opens a Sphinx’s Tutelage and Day’s Undoing in the same prerelease pack, that’s for sure. I could be wrong, but I think the triggers aren’t counted as “on the stack” until after the spell finishes resolving.

      But boy ever do I hope I’m wrong and the triggers do get exiled.

      • They do get exiled.
        From a judge: 713.1a. Exile every object on the stack, including the object that’s resolving. Remove all creatures and planeswalkers (including those that are phased out) from combat. All objects not on the battlefield or in the command zone that aren’t represented by cards will cease to exist the next time state-based actions are checked (see rule 704, “State-Based Actions”).

        It’s the last sentence we care about here. The triggers waiting to go on the stack are objects not on the battlefield or in the command zone that aren’t represented by cards, so they cease to exist in the cleanup step before they could go on the stack.

        • EddieDeanofIgnorance

          Oh, good. That alters my distress to someone opening 6 Sphinx’s Tutelages. :)

          “Draw my card for the turn, mill the top 12 of your library.”

          Edit: Don’t tell me it’s not possible. I opened three Shamans of the Great Hunt at Fate Reforged prerelease. Three mythics, of the same card! I imagine the odds of that happening are much lower than the odds of opening six uncommons of the same card (I’m too lazy to actually do the math).

          • jochen hendrickx

            Three Hornet Queens in M 15. Triple green was too much a pain so I only ran one.

        • Matt Wall

          Actually… A trigger’s not an object until it gets put onto the stack. The definition of an object, 109.1, doesn’t include “Triggers waiting to be put onto the stack”. So while Day’s Undoing is resolving, Sphinx’s Tutelage will trigger 7 times, but those triggers will wait to be put onto the stack per 603.3: “…its controller puts it on the stack as an object that’s not a card the next time a player would receive priority.” That means that the next time a player would receive priority (opponent’s Upkeep Step), all of those trigger are put onto the stack as objects. You’ll mill 14.

          EDIT: Hmm. 713.2 and one of the Gatherer rulings for Time Stop seem to be in conflict. The Gatherer ruling states that “If any triggered abilities do trigger during this process, they’re put onto the stack during the cleanup step…” but 703.2 specifies that only abilities that have triggered “…between the spell or ability resolving and the cleanup step ending…” are put onto the stack. This warrants an [O]fficial answer, to clear up whether or not “triggers waiting to be put onto the stack” are ignored by 713.2. That [O] answer won’t be coming until the set’s release though, unfortunately. :/

    • Ethan Ford Ford

      Some just look sad besides one thats in the power nine level
      If it was an instant

    • Looper

      I think Mizzium Meddler is a good sideboard card to protect your Jayce from removal heavy decks. And the new Jayce will make mill decks more competitive in standard. Obviously Day’s Undoing is a weaker version of Timetwister. But other than those 3, nothing blue is that scary or viable in competition. Apart from a handful of cards this set is pretty forgettable

      • Disperse is AMAZING and so is clash of wills. Both of those will see standard play be it now or post rotation.

    • Ryū

      The best possible scary.

  • Stef

    Not a fan of this Renowned ability. :-/ Seems tailored for limited only. Idea of Noble Hierarch copy seems underpowered and wasted.

    • Ryot

      It doesn’t seem that hard to use renowned in standard. Collected Company gets you two more guys on the field per turn, Break through the line gives your guys haste and usually unblockable, and Hardened Scales makes your creatures bigger when they hit. So just make naya renowned aggro.

      • Stef

        Sorry Ryot, but it is far worse than bolster or prowess etc. Don’t keep you hopes up. Casual play, sure. Standard Constructed, unlikely, unless we have yet to see some card that fits in a WW or red aggro deck, that would benefit from attacking. To be fair we already have Relic Seeker, but a few more like that, wouldn’t hurt the case. I have doubts about the amount of Constructed play these type of cards will see.

        • Phil Bowles

          Kytheon’s Irregulars might make the cut, since it can tap down blockers. And there is something to be said for weak creatures your opponent doesn’t want to be forced to block/trade with. Honored Hierarch, sadly, isn’t close to being good enough – it’s so early that anything it will trade with your opponent can afford to lose to cost you a mana elf, and there are a number of turn 2 plays that just kill it outright (Arashin Cleric, say).

    • Melissa Juice

      Abilities NEED to be tailored for limited, so thank goodness they did.
      Noble Hierarch is likely too good for standard, so its nice to have a fair one around.

      • Stef

        lol. No they don’t. It is actually possible to make abilities useful beyond limited, without making them overpowered and unplayable in Limited, say prowess? I imagine Magic wouldn’t exist otherwise.
        Noble Hierarch is too powerful for the current Standard meta environment. But this new Honored Hierarch is pretty much useless in Standard and mediocre in Limited.
        I predict a hyped initial price for the casual crows and then a dive to bulk price within a few weeks, as it is a poor constructed card. It’s a failed attempt at a Noble Hierarch copy, unless WotC actually want’s to power down the game that much.

        • Phil Bowles

          I suspect they may want the next Zendikar set to be a bit slower than the last one, especially as Eldrazi are bound to be in both sets rather than just the last one – playable 1-mana mana creatures mean earlier Eldrazi. So we get Honored Heirarch, which is unplayable, and a black Elves of Deep Shadow that can only use its mana to cast Elves.

      • Phil Bowles

        “Bad” isn’t the same as “fair”. The 1-mana rare elf slot was important in this set since Elvish Mystic is gone, and sadly Honored Hierarch isn’t Constructed-playable; it’s just too bad as a topdeck, and on the draw in a format crowded with 2-mana 2/2s and 3/3s. I’ve already ordered a playset of Shaman of Forgotten Ways while it’s still cheap, since that’s likely to become particularly important in a format where mana elves start at 2 and a horde of Eldrazi are on the way. I know they hate reprinting Birds of Paradise because it’s a flier, but I’d rather have had a BoP variant without flying than this.

        • Melissa Juice

          True enough. My take is that since ramp has been so great recently–with things like Caryatid and devotion–they may shy away from it for a short bit. I’m sure green will find plenty of dirty things to do, even lacking that crucial one drop (which still might show up).

          • Phil Bowles

            Green has always been my favourite colour, but I’ve been saying for a while that Wizards has been pushing it too far recently (glad they’ve finally decided to try fixing red’s one-dimensionality). It got the best card in Dragons of Tarkir and standouts in at least one format in nearly every other recent set, so I won’t begrudge Wizards for making it a little weaker here – and not just because all the 3-or-less drops with EtB effects in this set just scream “we’re really trying to break Collected Company, as if it wasn’t good enough before”.

            I have to say if they wanted to keep mana ramp at 2 mana (and drop land-based ramp, which has been mostly terrible recently, and isn’t getting any better if Nissa’s Pilgrimage is any guide) they should just have reprinted Caryatid to keep it in the format; possibly it’s a victim of the policy of dropping hexproof from the core set. Leaf Gilder is a very bad choice, since it’s strictly worse than one of the mana creatures remaining in the format (Rattleclaw Mystic). There were plenty of alternatives: Heart Warden (does the Heart of Yavimaya still exist in post-apocalyptic Dominaria? If not they could always make a functional reprint with a new name), Urborg Elf, and others – even Manaweft Sliver.

  • fi3ld 0f fir3

    oh man so many cards for “tiny leaders” and a few cards for my sheoldred commander

    • Ethan Ford Ford

      That tutor though

  • Big David

    Does the Honored Heirarch look like he’s wearing the same armor and medals as Rafiq of the Many?

    • Hedronal

      Bant, home of Rafiq, is one of the shown planes in this set, as it is Gideon’s first planeswalk. Also because it had a previous popular mana dork.

  • give me better commanders plz

    Really hoping we get another set of legendaries, the PW’s are obviously nice but I feel like all the others feel like just regular creatures, nothing that really pops for any of them

  • Aarhg

    What colors do you guys think you’ll be running at the prerelease so far? I think white or blue might be my pick, but there are still a bunch of cards left to be spoiled. We’ll see where it goes.

    • Jazzyboy1

      Either monowhite or Azorius. Depends on the rest of the soldiers they spoil.

      Or just a completely different colour combination, because Modern Masters, my first try at Limited, showed me that Limited doesn’t like my deck choices. I wanted to play Azorius. I ended up playing Golgari because I didn’t have the card base for Azorius :/

      • Aarhg

        Well, you usually get a seeded booster pack of the color of your choice at prereleases. For Modern Masters though, I don’t think that was the case.

    • EddieDeanofIgnorance

      I’m thinking of going with black. Although blue is looking to have some pretty strong limited cards so far. But I /really/ want a Liliana for my Zombie Tiny Leaders deck. Maralen of the Mornsong just isn’t a good commander for it, and I don’t own any other CMC≤3 black legendaries. :-/

      • Jake

        Maybe you have more information on this ruling than I do, but I’m not sure yet if the origins planeswalkers will able to be commanders. Reason being the planeswalker has a different NAME than your actual commander. Your commander would be Liliana Heretical Healer, not Liliana Defiant Necromancer. On the other hand I’m not sure what the ruling will be on em.

        • EddieDeanofIgnorance

          -blinks at you-…You can only cast them as legendary creatures. They’re legal for commander status. But if you transform them, you can’t win with commander damage. Because any damage they deal won’t be combat damage. Exception with Gideon, of course, since he can turn into a 4/4 creature after he’s become a planeswalker.

          Saying these legendary creatures aren’t able to be commanders is like saying Kuon, Ogre Ascendant et al (Homura, Rune-Tail, and Sasaya; Erayo got banned cause it locked everybody out too easily) can’t be commanders since they turn into enchantments later. Or that the Theros Gods can’t be used as commanders since they’re not creatures until you have the right amount of devotion.

    • Ethan Ford Ford

      I’m goin to force mono blue

    • Phil Bowles

      We don’t yet know how the prerelease will be organised – Planeswalker-themed is likely, and so monocoloured, but it’s not outside the bounds of possibility that they’ll go with 10 planes. I like a lot of what I see in white for both Limited and Constructed so I may go with that, however as an archetype it’s hard to beat Elves even though green looks weak otherwise and black doesn’t seem very coherent from what we’ve seen so far.

  • Ryot

    Does anyone know if the prerelease will go back to just a single bulk rare or will their still be a pool?

    • Because they didn’t show any prerelease promos with the other promos it’s safe to assume that there’s going to be a pool.

  • Fakeromon .

    I love that wizards is “bringing back” fixed staples.

    Snapcaster Mage = Jace
    Spellskite = Mizzium Meddler
    Stoneforge Mystic = Relic Hunter
    Damnation = Languish
    Upheaval = Displacement Wave
    Noble Hierarch = Honored Hierarch
    Demonic Tutor = Dark Petition
    Opalescence = Starfield of Nyx
    Timetwister = Day’s Undoing

    • EddieDeanofIgnorance

      Dark Petition is more like the offspring of Demonic Tutor and Dark Ritual.

      • Dr. Burn Crow

        The beautiful, vicious offspring.

        • EddieDeanofIgnorance

          Beauty is for the delusional. I like my darkness with a heaping helping of horrendous…non-alliterative dreadfulness.

          • Dr. Burn Crow

            The beauty is in the brutality and efficiency.

          • Fakeromon .

            OMG storm crow is green and blue!

          • Dr. Burn Crow

            No. Storm Crow transcends colors. We hail from the Maelstrom. We are the lords of all magic. Heed and obey.

    • Phil Bowles

      Damnation isn’t really a staple and doesn’t really need fixing, but it is nice to see a new version. There’s also Flameshadow Conjuring = Sneak Attack (a Legacy staple, at least formerly).

  • selesnyawarden

    A few days ago, Wizards gave us a card that caused certain reactions over various social media. It had three powerfull things; art, resonounding flavor-text and a connection that everybody could have/find, suggest or imply based entirely of course on thier own feelings or personal reasons. The card was “blessed spirits” for this upcomming last core set Magic Origins. But now the same can be applied to this card “seismic elemental”. Just “read the flavor text” and picture yourself struggling or fighting to reach a restroom/toilet in time. Please don’t hate, I just found it hilarious when my friends pointed this fact. I found the art good and was distracted by it, but failed to read the flavor with
    that thought in my mind. ;-)

    • Stef

      Ok seismic elemental made me lol.

    • Dr. Burn Crow

      Gross. Good work.

  • Bant has to be my favorite group of anything in MTG and boy is it getting some amazing stuff. Needs some more utility bears for modern.

    • Ryū

      Best shard, imo.

      • Dustin Weeks

        My favorite shard is Esper i just like the ook and feel of most of the cards and of the plane itself. As for my favorite group out of anything it is a tie between The Simic Combine and the Orzhov Syndicate

        • Ryū

          I just can’t get behind the metal worlds like Esper and Mirrodin. My favorite guilds would have to be Simic and Izzet. I love the whole “science meets magic” shtick.

          • Dustin Weeks

            My roomate is a izzet player. He loves the color combination and just everything about the guild. A while ago me and my friends worked out wich quilds we would belong to and i was our Orzhov guy. but i have always been fond of the simic guild

          • kltsurumaki

            As for my favorite shard, I am a fan of Grixis, and I am a fan of the Gruul Clans in terms of Ravnica Guilds.

          • Phil Bowles

            Missed Alara block, and nothing about it really appeals to me – it’s from an era of Magic when the settings Wizards developed were very one-dimensional and contingent on the block theme, rather than being realised as interesting fantasy worlds in their own right. Mirrodin was the worst offender; not only was everything an artifact, but there were about five named major locations on the plane, one per colour – the minimum they could get away with mechanically. Alara was all “Bant this, Jund that, Esper the other”, with each shard nothing but a caricature of the features the three colours share. I don’t think they really broke away from this crude scene-setting until Tarkir (Theros made a start, but there was still the whole ‘5 colours = 5 settings, one of which is a forest, and that’s your world’ thing).

          • Ryū

            I missed it as well. I honestly prefer the mechanics over the stories of some of the old planes. My first real deck that wasn’t pre-constructed was a W/G/U Exalted deck. That’s mostly where my love for Bant comes from.

          • Phil Bowles

            I started with Alliances and Mirage, which had great settings, decent stories (and in Mirage, fantastic art) and generally lousy mechanics. Setting has always been important to my appreciation of Magic (story not so much – Tarkir has great scene-setting but can’t even be said to have a bad story since it barely had a story – “character goes back in time, saves a dragon, The End’ is a plot outline at best). It didn’t much help that, just looking through the card list at the time, Alara didn’t look to be doing anything very imaginative with its mechanics (especially coming from the over-the-top weirdness of Time Spiral and Lorwyn blocks).

          • Ryū

            I started like a week after Dark Ascension came out.

      • Melissa Juice

        I love the brutality of Jund too much.

        • Ryū

          Where the food chain is ten miles long and covered in blood and spikes.

          • Melissa Juice

            Yessssssssssss.

          • Ryū

            Just recently got a hold of Karrthus and Kresh myself to make a Jund commander deck..

          • Melissa Juice

            Right on. Go forth and conquer.

          • Ryū

            Eat all of the things!!

  • Captain Sunshine

    I want a play set of demonic pact, the decks goal will be to lose before anyone mills me or deals damage to me

    • What is Demonic Pact?

      Never mind I saw it now.

    • Luís Manuel Abreu Batista

      think of a combo to play that hability and change the card text to your opponent and you have that card playable.

  • Lokhan Ren

    I don’t know why they are re-printing pain lands. I mean, a lot of this set is influencing mono color.

    • They always put 2 color lands in core sets. Theros was pretty much the same, mostly mono-colored with 5 scry lands.

      • Hedronal

        10 scry lands, even better.

        • I am comparing Origins to Theros the set not the block.

    • TogetherAlone

      Because Tarkir is a dual or 3 color set, and they have to support that somewhat, and i’m hoping in zendikar they re-print the rest of the fetch lands.

    • Melissa Juice

      To make sure they’re in standard, of course.

    • Phil Bowles

      They want dual lands in every core set, and there’s a confirmed ten-guild theme for Origins. The problem with duals is that there aren’t many that enter play untapped without conditions, and some of the conditional ones are problematic (for instance, Shadowmoor filter lands are out because Shadowmoor isn’t part of the set’s setting; Lorwyn tribal lands are out because only Elves are supported in their Lorwyn colour pair). So either they print new ones or reuse the pain lands.

  • RedPandaRevolution

    Huh. I would have almost bet money on legendary lands reflecting each planeswalker’s home or first ‘walk location. Pain is better than Check at least, I suppose.

    • Hedronal

      I would hope for something like that, but my land-hopes are tied up in a cycle for Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, and more Hideaway.

  • Ryū

    I’m lovin’ it

  • GWB Humans as a standard deck?

  • Hedronal

    I am detecting a cycle of ten dual-colored uncommons. One for each plane in the set, thus far color-matching the appropriate planeswalkers with the two colors before them.
    Thus far:
    Gideon is white, and came from Akros (red/white aligned) in Theros to Bant, which was green/white/blue. His Akroan card is unknown, but fits the two colors before pattern. His Bant card is Citadel Castellan, complete with knighthood and leotau mount (a species seen only on Bant from among the planes of this set).
    Jace is blue, and came from Vyrn (previously unknown), to Ravnica. His Vyrnian card (presumed white/blue) is unknown, but his Ravnican card is Bounding Krasis, as krasis have only been seen on Ravnica, made by the Simic, who are green/blue.
    Liliana is black, and came from Dominaria (the big plane before modern) to Innistrad (the capitol of horror in Mtg). Both planes have strong enough black mana to work with her, with one being also blue, and the other also white.
    Chandra is red, and came from Kaladesh (mechanical from her story, potentially blue/red) to Regatha (mostly unseen, but with fire-monks). Her Kaladeshian card is unknown, but Blazing Hellhound (black/red) fits the theme of fire on the plane, highlighted previously by Regathan Firecat, which also mentioned a temple like monks might have.
    Nissa is green, and came from Zendikar (home of land that walks on you) to Lorwyn (which has black/green elves, while Nissa is an elf). Her Zendikar card is Zendikar Incarnate (which is red/green, and mentions her in its flavor text), and her Lorwynian card is * of the Pack (card spoiler blurry, an elf from Lowryn).

    • Antares

      I was thinking we’d get cards that represent the planes, but I did NOT think that they would be cards that fit into the Planeswalkers’ stories.

      So right now we have confirmed:

      Bant – G/W (Citadel Castellan (On an unrelated note, I *REALLY* wish such amazing art had gone to a better card)

      Zendikar – R/G (Zendikar Incarnate)

      Ravnica – U/G (Bounding Krasis)

      Lorwyn – B/G (The “Of the Pack” elf; Lorwyn elves were B/G in Lorwyn, and W/G in Shadowmoor)

      Theros will be Red/White (as it’s more “Akros” than Theros. Given that Chandra’s home plane, Khaladesh, looks like an Izzet style plane, it will likely be U/R. Innistrad and Dominaria will both have Black. Given that Innistrad had such a strong presence of White thanks to Avacyn, and Blessed Spirits looks Innistrad-y as all get out, I’d say that Innistrad will be W/B. I’d put Regatha as R/B. The reason for this being that R/W and R/G are taken, meaning that R/U and R/B will be Khaladesh for Chandra. That leaves us U/W and U/B. Because Innistrad has W/B, then by default Dominaria must have U/B. That leaves only U/W unassigned, so it goes to Jace’s homeplane of Vryn.

      Suspected:
      Regatha – B/R (Raging Hellhound)
      Theros – R/W
      Khaladesh – R/U
      Innistrad- B/W
      Vryn – U/W
      Dominaria – U/B

      So overall I agree with your statements. :)
      I’m excited to see the other uncommons, and if any of them will be constructed worthy. I hope that we get a cycle of 10 creatures, one for each plane. I am definitely thinking that the 10 non-planeswalker colored mythics will be related to the planeswalkers in the colors (E.g. Starfield of Nyx and Archangel of Tithes are both Gideon related).

      • EddieDeanofIgnorance

        You’ve got it backwards. UB will be Innistrad, and it will either be a new multicolored Zombie or a representation of a Stitcher. Dominaria will be the WB card, and likely something dealing with life gain. Hopefully something that can force your opponent to gain life, so Tainted Remedy isn’t just a “Modern-legal False Cure” card.

      • Fakeromon .

        Blessed spirits is actually from innistrad, the bird you see in the church’s window is actually the Gavony village symbol

      • Phil Bowles

        Shaman of the Pack has now been fully-revealed, and I’m pretty confident saying it could see use as a finisher for Elf Company decks in Modern – it will see a lot of use in Standard if elves are the deck they’re apparently being pushed to be.

      • kingalexander61

        Archangel is actually Liliana related, she killed the angel and took it’s headdress.

      • magicdai

        To me chandra’s home plane has a very white feel, the captain was talking about order (White’s main ideology).

        And I remember reading that chandra was fighting the white order that gideon became part of when they killed the monks (gideon was sent to kill her).

    • Phil Bowles

      Yes, ten planes and ten guilds was confirmed in a Wizards article (apparently Rosewater will be discussing the choices on Monday). So far we have:

      WU (Vryn): Seems to be a control theme (now there’s a shock) with cards like the new Thalia Pegasus and Archangel of Tithes suggesting a Pendrell Vale/hatebears type approach.

      WB: Nothing yet shown that gives hints to the theme or plane – Blessed Spirits has an Innistrad name and art, but a Theros enchantment theme (and WB is almost certainly not Theros). We already know that each plane is represented by cards in colours outside their archetype (such as the Lorwyn Faerie and Boggart cards).

      WR: Presumably Theros, but we’ve seen no real red support yet except for the common red aura. Enchantment theme (love a lot of these cards – they feel as though they’d have fit perfectly in the block); Blessed Spirits is however an enchantment-themed cards that seems to fit Innistrad in flavour rather than Theros.

      WG (Bant). Renown/+1/+1 counter theme.

      UB: Either UB, WB or BR has to be Dominaria (each plane seems to share a colour with its associated walker) – not sure we know which yet, or if we have a known theme.

      UR (Kaladesh or Regatha): Probably an artifact theme, which fits the storyline for Kaladesh. Also the colours of prowess, so may instead simply go for aggression.

      UG (Ravnica): Krasis are Simic, so we know the plane. The ability is generic for these colours, and there aren’t any other Rav-themed cards revealed yet.

      BR (Innistrad?): Seems to be a sacrifice theme. Infernal Scarring looks like Innistrad-themed art to me; did the setting have hellhounds?

      BG (Lorwyn): Elves.

      RG (Zendikar): Presumably landfall, though we’ve also seen lands as a supported theme in white.

      • Matt Wasser

        I count two mono green cards that are on Ravnica.

      • Hedronal

        All of this has now been confirmed, give or take.

  • Julna Buras

    Am I the only one who feels that people are bagging on most of the cards in this set? Can’t we wait until the cards are actually being played to pass final judgments on them?

    • Silly person, that’s not how Magic players work.

      • Kaiser

        That is not how the hype works indeed (?)

    • EddieDeanofIgnorance

      I find it annoying, too.

    • Melissa Juice

      “Think of how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of ’em are stupider than that.” – George Carlin

  • SmolderingButcher

    This set has a very classical Magic: the gathering feeling too it. I haven’t played with it yet and already I think that makes it awesome.

    • BlahBlahBlahBla

      I get the same vibe and i’m really digging it!

    • Phil Bowles

      Loving a lot of that – part is in the pseudo-reprints, part the deliberate selection of once-retired abilities (white’s Land Tax creature, which is apparently a reprint but using an ability very rare on modern white cards, menace), and also part in the way the themes that most obviously reference past blocks fit those settings. The ‘enchantments matter’ cards could easily have been printed in Theros block and some in Urza block. The Lorwyn-themed cards work both in that setting and for giving the core set a classic-style tribal theme and +1/+1 lord.

  • BlahBlahBlahBla

    Surprised by enemy pain lands again. Was really really really hoping for enemy fast lands. -_- Le sigh.

    • Phil Bowles

      Surprised by enemy lands of any kind – was expecting allies to balance Zendikar fetches, but presumably the intent is that allied fetches from Khans will balance those, and there will be a subsequent allied cycle at some point.

  • Alec Hubert

    wizards what the hell is wrong with you with a name like “origins” you would think we would see more than a few reprints instead all i see is fear of influencing the modern meta game and speeding up standard

    • Melissa Juice

      Grammar is your friend.

      • It’s actually kinda annoying

        Honestly, if you understand what they’re saying, does grammar matter at all?

        • Kohou

          Yes.

        • EddieDeanofIgnorance

          The instinct is that the guy is saying this: “Wizards, what the hell is wrong with you? With a name like “Origins” you would think we would see more than a few reprints. Instead all I see is fear of influencing the Modern meta game and speeding up Standard.”

          But how do I know he didn’t mean this: “Wizards! What the hell is wrong with you with a name like “Origins?” You would think we would see more than a few reprints. Instead all I see is fear. Of influencing the Modern meta game. And speeding up Standard.”

          Punctuation changes how things are read.

        • Melissa Juice

          Language is quite subtle, and lots of little nuances change (significantly) the meanings of words.

          Also, it’s rude to make other people read your bad writing. It’s like talking to someone in an accent you made up. I can *more or less* get what he’s saying, but not clearly or definitely.

          So, yes. Grammar matters. For the sake of good manners and communication.

          • astropath

            but he didn’t ask to communicate with you, nor was his post meant for you to read.

          • Paul Barrington

            It was posted on a public site. It was meant for any magic player to read.

          • astropath

            he didn’t stop you from reading, nor did he beg you to read it. if you like it, read it. if you don’t, scram. he doesn’t owe you good English. he is entitled to be lazy.

          • Paul Barrington

            I don’t have a problem with his (if it is a he) bad English, I was commenting in your assertion that it was meant for some to read and not others.

          • astropath

            it was meant for non whiners to read.

          • Paul Barrington

            Not entirely sure where the whining happened, but if that’s the way you want to read it that’s fine by me.

          • How are you going to post on a public section and then say that only on kind of person is meant to read it?

          • Melissa Juice

            Huh? Of course it was. It was posted to read by other people on this site.

    • Jade

      >set is less than 1/2 spoiled
      >we just saw piledriver reprinted

      “why are there no influential reprints?”

  • Taxle

    feel free to send me some of your copys! =)

  • Francisco Fontanive

    koilos must have a lot of caves…

    • Djough Smytthe

      Lol

  • Melissa Juice

    Bummer. Pain lands are great.

  • Phil Bowles

    One good thing about them is that those of us who have a set for use in Standard can use them for another year or two…

  • Kaiser

    First i feel fear for bant now i feel a LOT of fear for elfs :V come on wizards give me a really nasty black spell

    • kingalexander61

      Yea they should print a 4 mana sorcery that gives -4/-4 to all creatures.

      • Dr. Burn Crow

        Or one that provides life drain, card advantage and card discarding.

        • EddieDeanofIgnorance

          Nah, man. They need a functional reprint of False Cure.

          • Dr. Burn Crow

            What about a diabolical tutor spliced onto a dark ritual?

          • Lionlive

            Evil

          • Ashenmoor

            These things will never happen, are you guys crazy?

          • EddieDeanofIgnorance

            Only if it’s situational. Like, say, having two instants or sorceries in my graveyard in order to get the Dark Ritual effect.

          • You 2 should be on the development team.

      • Stef

        Beat me to it. ^^

  • Jay Kilian

    That goblin + Rabblemaster is just rude.

    • EddieDeanofIgnorance

      Rabblemaster will rotate out soon enough.

      What’s funny is that a guy in my playgroup said something about wanting to see Piledriver in Origins. Guess he got his wish.

      • Phil Bowles

        Not sure about Piledriver, honestly. Mono-red needs a replacement for Foundry Street Denizen and Piledriver does much the same thing, as well as being brutal with Hordeling Outburst. But 1 vs. 2 mana is pretty important for that deck, since your high-power bruiser may just get blocked. Nice with Heelcutter, of course, or just against blue decks (as it gets through every dragon played by Esper).

        • EddieDeanofIgnorance

          Clearly you never played when it was in Standard. Odyssey-Onslaught Standard had a wicked mean Goblin deck, thanks in part to Piledriver. Origins Standard won’t have anything nearly as mean, but anybody who remembers Piledriver will certainly be quick to remove it. If they can.

          Anything that chump blocks Piledriver is definitely dying, unless it has indestructible or protection from red. And even then, Piledriver will be large enough to make use of Wild Slash’s Ferocious ability. Piledriver will make waves in red deck wins.

          Expect monored Goblins to be a deck for a while. Once FSD rotates out it might dwindle in popularity, but for this brief window of Theros-Origins Standard Gobos On Parade is going to be a thing.

          • Phil Bowles

            As the article that previewed it pointed out, cards that return to Standard from that era tend not to age well – it gave the examples of Call of the Herd and Nantuko Shade. By modern standards a good creature from Magic history is rarely going to be strong. Sure it will kill whatever blocks it, but then you’re paying for a delayed removal spell to kill a 2-power creature of the opponent’s choice – playable in all likelihood, but by no means amazing. The article specifically mentioned that they wanted to avoid the Call of the Herd trap and reprint a fondly-remembered card that wouldn’t do anything these days, but I doubt they’ll have succeeded with Piledriver.

            Unlike those other cards it will probably see some Standard play, but at least at this point not enough of monored’s aggressive creatures are goblins and it’s losing key tools (Foundry Street Denizen, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Frenzied Goblin or red heroic in some builds, and the big kickers, Goblin Rabblemaster and Stoke the Flames).

            I think Sylvan Messenger saw play in the elf decks back in the same era, and that’s more than underwhelming in Collected Companyland.

          • EddieDeanofIgnorance

            I don’t read the articles any more. Ever since that one guy said wrong things about how a card worked. I skip through to the preview card, and then come here to check for spoilers from other websites. And have my own opinions about cards.

          • When did that happen?

          • EddieDeanofIgnorance

            It’s been several years ago. I don’t remember who the columnist was, just that he said something wrong about how a card worked. I don’t think he’s a columnist for Daily MTG anymore…

            I continued reading Arcana, though. Up until they put Blake Rasmussen on Arcana duty. He sounds like a moron to me, and he picks really dumb ways of trying to make cards sound interesting. Although if his name isn’t on the Arcana article, I will read it.

          • I usually end up just looking for spoilers and read the Arcana anyways. I was just wondering if it had happened recently.

        • Jazzyboy1

          Foundry Street Denizen isn’t even close to as powerful as Piledriver. Piledriver gets his bonuses every turn for each attacking goblin. If you keep building up goblins, he’s insane. Foundry Street only gets a bonus every time a red creature enters and you’ll probably only have 2 or 3 goblins enter in a turn. And he only gets a very small bonus.

          Plus Piledriver has pro-blue so he’s cruel to Merfolk decks.(which are winning in Modern atm)

          • Phil Bowles

            It sounds as though you haven’t played with or against the Denizen decks – it costs R and, with cards like Dragon Fodder in the format, is hitting for 3 reliably on turn 2; Hordeling Outburst, Akroan Crusader and Rabblemaster make it very easy to trigger repeatedly (not to mention dashed Heelcutter or Zurgo), and it’s not restricted to playing with goblins. A card that hits for a lot before it can be blocked is much more relevant than one that gets higher power but dies on its first attack to an expendable blocker.

          • Jazzyboy1

            It sounds as though you haven’t played a Denizen deck against anybody who knows how to build a decent MTG deck. Denizen’s ridiculously weak. I don’t have a single deck that would have any trouble against him, even in Standard.

          • Phil Bowles

            Not a question of whether the Denizen-based decks are weak or not (the Fate Reforged tournament results tend to disagree) – in Standard, however good or bad Denizen may be, Piledriver is simply worse. If you don’t have a problem dealing with Denizen in the format, you shouldn’t expect Piledriver to have any impact.

          • Jazzyboy1

            Piledriver’s pro-blue is relevant and it usually has higher power, which kills more blockers.

          • Phil Bowles

            Pro-blue is barely relevant – it was important for Mistcutter Hydra only when blue devotion was a thing, but even with Esper Dragons it’s not an important enough attribute for that card to have seen recent play. And the only requirement to trade is that the blocker has 2 power, so why would anyone block with a tougher creature than they need to? Come to that, Rakshasa Deathdealer often won’t even trade.

          • Phil Bowles

            As for Merfolk, it just trades with Mutavault, which is worse than trading with something the opponent actually paid for. Though it may indeed be better in Modern than in Standard, where protection from blue is irrelevant on something this cheap – by the time Esper Dragons gets its creatures out they should already be dead.

          • Jazzyboy1

            You realise they do pay for Mutavault, right? And I’ve played against merfolk with Mutavault. Killing Mutavault is basically playing Stone Rain. It does count towards their land per turn count, so losing it can be devastating if they have to block with it.

          • Phil Bowles

            and you last saw Stone Rain in a Modern deck when, exactly (and yes, it is in the format)? Paying for an activated ability is very far from paying for a creature, in a deck where you don’t otherwise get 2/2s for 1.

          • Jazzyboy1

            They are basically paying 2 for a 2/2. They can’t tap Mutavault for mana while it’s attacking and they usually can’t use the mana while it’s blocking so they’re losing 1 mana just from that, plus they have to get another mana from another land.

            I wasn’t saying you should play Stone Rain to kill Mutavault. I was saying blocking or being blocked by Mutavault is the same as casting Stone Rain for free if you can kill it.

          • Phil Bowles

            But it’s not free – you’re losing a 1R card for a delayed Stone Rain; Ghost Quarter it’s not.

            As for the mana, 1 buys you Dismember and, what’s more, can be paid with Cavern of Souls mana that is otherwise mostly dead in the deck; it’s also at instant speed so allows you to keep mana up that you couldn’t if playing a creature/

          • Jazzyboy1

            And if they don’t draw Dismember?

            I’m not saying Mutavault’s bad. Far from it. I’m saying Piledriver would be a problem for Merfolk and Mutavault does not alleviate the problem as much as you seem to think. Goblins wouldn’t particularly care if Mutavault blocks and kills Piledriver, especially considering the amount of ways goblins can take advantage of their creatures dying. Mutavault is a bigger loss to Merfolk than Piledriver is to Goblins and if Merfolk don’t draw into Mutavault, Piledriver’s an unblockable bomb.

          • Phil Bowles

            Equally, I’m not saying that it’s bad against Merfolk just because Mutavault (and Dismember) exist – but then, winning a single tournament doesn’t make Merfolk a common deck or one that’s hugely relevant to the metagame (according to MtGTop8, it’s about 4% of the format) and it’s pretty much the only situation where Piledriver has value. Is Merfolk a bad matchup for Goblins anyway?

  • Lokhan Ren

    Elves dude. ELVES DUDE. Standard elves IS A THING DUDE. And if not, I’m going to make it a thing.

    • Phil Bowles

      Mostly plants for Zendikar at this point, I suspect. Elvish Visionary and cards like Shaman of the Pack are great, but most of what we’ve seen needs more Constructed-playable Elves than Origins can feasibly provide, given that it’s a single set that has to cater for 10 archtypes and elves are only found in two colours. Standard Elves, driven by Collected Company, look likely to be a thing, but probably not right after Origins.

  • BlahBlahBlahBla

    This set is just lovely.. Really impressed with WotC right now. Khans block was quite solid and this is even an improvement on that. Excited!

  • Aarhg

    Maybe Wizards made MM15 underwhelming on purpose to make Origins look better.
    Or maybe Origins is actually gonna be effin’ sweet and I should go get a tinfoil hat.

    • Phil Bowles

      MM15 seemed underwhelming to people who hadn’t seen the card list for the first Modern Masters…

    • Justin Price

      elfin* sweet

  • louiemascara

    EFFING PILEDRIVER!!! to heck with standard, modern is gonna be wrecked!! i might cry…. if they give me lackey, it’ll be legacy in modern <3

  • MTG GEEEEEEK

    when Lili was first spoiled I wanted her for the prerelease but know the white is getting outta hand…

    Maybe I will go orzhov

    • Jazzyboy1

      We haven’t seen much of Innistrad’s cards yet.

  • MTG GEEEEEEK

    Elves merfolk goblins what next rats, maybe even stormcrow plz no stormcrow

    • Phil Bowles

      Lorwyn’s part of the theme, so we could see kithkin, treefolk (quite likely, as they share Lorwyn elf colours) and giants, and Dominaria has almost every tribe going (still want the Orc lord Tarkir didn’t give us). Though that is no Lorwyn merfolk – nice art though. And 2 mana for a conditional Man o’War is still 2 mana for a Man o’War.

      • Jazzyboy1

        I really really want to see Kithkin.

        A Kithkin Soldier preferrably, because Kithkin Soldiers is an awesome deck. (most of the good Kithkin have more synergy with Soldiers than other Kithkin funnily enough)

        • Phil Bowles

          Poor Preeminent Captain – another of those once-powerful reprints that did exactly nothing when brought back. It wasn’t even good in M15 Limited since Soldiers were hardly supported.

          • Jazzyboy1

            To be fair, it’s still a 2/2 first strike for 3. There were much worse cards to pull in M15 Limited.

            And I run it in Modern, in a pretty powerful deck, which just needs another good lord to be competitive. We only have Field Marshal and Captain of the Watch, and Field Marshal’s effect is global -.-
            Auriok Steelshaper’s good but needs equipment to be a lord.
            P.S. The Veteran smiths are not good in Modern so I do not consider them ‘good lords’.

          • Guest

            Exactly my thoughts!

            I too would gladly see a functional reprint of Field Marshal. Not only bugs me that he reinforces my opponent’s soldiers, but he’s also way too expensive for being a strictly casual card.

            I really like Kytheon though, he could become one of the most powerful 1 drops and a must have in soldier decklists.

            I hope for one or two more good soldiers in Origins, so I can play at least a little while with a decent soldier tribal in standard (until Preeminent Captain rotates).

            One last thing: Could you perhaps show me your soldier decklist? You seem to have included a lot of good Kithkin cards, but mine only really supports soldiers and I would like to see a good alternative.

          • Jazzyboy1

            Strange. Magic Spoiler doesn’t seem to like TappedOut. I tried to post a comment with a link to the decklist on TappedOut but it said ‘Waiting to be approved’, then never got approved. That’s happened to me before when I tried to post a decklist based on EvsK. Ah, well.

            Here’s the decklist in text:

            Creature (31)
            4x Ballyrush Banneret
            4x Captain of the Watch
            3x Cenn’s Tactician
            4x Court Street Denizen
            2x Field Marshal
            3x Kinsbaile Borderguard
            4x Mirror Entity
            4x Preeminent Captain
            3x Thoughtweft Trio

            Land (21)
            3x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
            15x Plains
            3x Windbrisk Heights

            Instant (8)
            4x Brave the Elements
            4x Surge of Thoughtweft

            Enchantment (2)
            2x Militia’s Pride

            Surge of Thoughtweft and Militia’s Pride are both reduced by Ballyrush btw. Militia’s Pride can also be championed by Thoughtweft Trio and counts as a Kithkin towards Kinsbaile Borderguard.

            If we got a functional reprint of Field Marshal, I’d definitely run 4 of them because +1/+1 and first strike is amazing. I’d pay quite a bit for that because while Field Marshal’s not that great because he buffs all soldiers, the buff he does give is powerful. Not quite Knight Exemplar of course… but Knight Exemplar’s ridiculous :P

            It’d be nice if that functional reprint turns out to be a Kithkin too… because Kithkin are amazing.

          • PopStarNîdalee

            wait, no honor of the pure nor path to exile? thats odd

          • Jazzyboy1

            I play this in Casual(though we mostly all play Modern), where I frown upon removal.

            If I played it competitively, I’d definitely run Path to Exile, at least in sideboard. Not Honor of the Pure though because if I wanted a non-soldier lord, I’d just run Wizened Cenn, who’s basically Honor of the Pure on legs for this deck, considering most of the deck’s Kithkin.

          • Guest

            A very neat decklist you got there… I might borrow some of your ideas if you don’t mind. And I’m also very interested in what (and if) cards from origins find a new home in there

          • Jazzyboy1

            I am considering replacing something with Kytheon. Probably Cenn’s Tactician, though Cenn’s Tactician is pretty powerful. Kytheon transformed can give Thoughtweft Trio indestructible though, giving you a 5/5 with vigilance and indestructible that can block any number of creatures. Hmm….

      • selesnyawarden

        I LUV tree-folk, fingers crossed for more tree-folk lords, my tribal commander needs them badly :-)

        • Phil Bowles

          I’d just like to see Murming Bosk reprinted…

          But Treefolk are a classic and now rarely-used part of Magic; since they’re major parts of the fauna (flora?) only on Dominaria (and Rath, which no longer exists) and Lorwyn, it’s a good opportunity to bring them back. Even in Lorwyn they were somewhat neglected – the good ones, like Doran, weren’t really Treefolk tribal cards, and Treefolk tribal hasn’t really been a thing the way elves, merfolk, goblins, or even MM Limited Elementals have been.

          • Arcanis The omnipotent

            Dont forget the squirrels!

          • Hedronal

            They are still my favorite tribe, and my phone home screen.

        • Melissa Juice

          Treefolk are, by far, my favorite tribe.

  • Mj

    Days undoing is probably going to go up in price as its basically time twister

  • MysteriousPerson

    Alhammarret’s Archive + Day’s Undoing + Notion Theif. EDH players, you will thank me later.

    • EddieDeanofIgnorance

      No they won’t. They have to discard 14X+7 (where X is the number of opponents) cards unless they played a Reliquary Tower on a previous turn.

      And I don’t know about anybody else, but I’d much rather have the colored mana I need instead of an infinite hand size.

      EDIT: Plus if they have a Reliquary Tower, some jerk opponent can just Ghost Quarter or Strip Mine it in response to Day’s Undoing.

      • Jazzyboy1

        14X+14*

        Yeah, this combo sounds cool but unless you run graveyard love, it does more harm than good to you in the long term.

        • EddieDeanofIgnorance

          You shuffle your previous hand into your library before drawing cards, and your maximum hand size barring changes from other cards is 7. My equation is correct; 14X+7 cards are discarded.

          If you’d like, I can walk you through the process:
          Your hand and graveyard are shuffled into your library (as are everybody elses). You and everybody else have no hand for a brief moment of time. Alhamarret’s Archive will replace your 7 card draw with 14 cards. Notion Thief will replace each of your opponents’ 7 card draws with you drawing 7 cards (which is replaced by the Archive with you drawing 14 cards). You will have drawn 14Y cards, where Y is the number of players in the game. You will discard all but 7 of those cards since the turn will end, assuming only the mentioned cards are used in the combo setup. Hence, 14X+7 cards are discarded, where X is the number of opponents.

          • Archive has you draw double so Jazzy is right.

          • EddieDeanofIgnorance

            You didn’t read the process, did you? Jazzy is wrong, and so are you. You discard down to your maximum hand size, not to 0. 14X+14 would leave you with no cards in hand.

          • 1) I misread they original comment as draw not discard, my mistake, it happens.
            2) You didn’t have to say what you did in such a demeaning way.

          • EddieDeanofIgnorance

            I’m easily annoyed when something I know is correct is challenged. And I have no way of knowing when somebody has misread a seven letter word for a four letter word that basically means the opposite.

          • Jazzyboy1

            Yeah sorry, I misread it as draw as well. It was late at night and I was really tired so I could have misread anything, even if it was posted in a giant font and bolded.

          • It was the same for me, when I posted ot was about midnight after being up since the previous day.

          • magicdai

            Wouldn’t it actually be 12X+7? Because notion thief doesn’t affect the first card they draw for the turn.

          • EddieDeanofIgnorance

            No, Notion Thief is referencing the turn-based action of drawing a card at the beginning of the draw step. “…the first one he or she draws in each of his or her draw steps…” is the entirety of the exclusion. If it excluded the first card drawn each turn, it would say something more along the lines of “…except the first card he or she would draw in a turn…”

          • magicdai

            Ah right, I remember it had that exemption but couldn’t remember the wording of it

  • mycatjack

    When will their be more spoilers?

    • pain42

      tomorrow, around 10:00 AM central US time for sure. otherwise possibly around midnight tonight (again central US time)

  • Benjamin Blessing

    I want a rhys the redeemed reprint

    • Phil Bowles

      Not going to happen here – this is Lorwyn; Shadowmoor hasn’t happened yet so Rhys is still unredeemed. Plus Elves are GB, so he doesn’t fit.

      • EddieDeanofIgnorance

        Lorwyn turns into Shadowmoor and back again on a cycle. But in the Lorwyn/Shadowmoor block, the Shadowmoor stage of the cycle was initiated early by Oona, Queen of the Fae, in order to keep the plane from being destroyed by the Mending (although she didn’t know it was the Mending, she just knew something was happening that threatened the plane and that the plane would be safe if it went through the change at the right moment).

        But Nissa wouldn’t have stuck around long enough to see the Shadowmoor version of Lorwyn. And probably didn’t get to mess around with her planeswalker powers long enough to figure out that a change had happened to it’s fundamental metaphysics. As opposed to Liliana, who became a planeswalker before the Mending took place.

        • Phil Bowles

          Yes, Lorwyn turns into Shadowmoor on a cycle, but Rhys is only about for one of them (and since the block’s events end the cycle for good, he won’t be around for any subsequent ones. We can be pretty sure that Nissa’s visit is sometime earlier than the events of the Lorwyn story – had she been around at the same time, Nath would have been the Gilt-Leaf leader. I’m pretty certain Dwynen is an original character to Origins, not featured in Lorwyn’s story at all.

          I suspect a full-blown return to whatever the Lorwyn/Shadowmoor plane has now become is on the cards at siome point soon, but this is definitely prior to the Lorwyn we’ve seen so far.

          • EddieDeanofIgnorance

            The cycle wasn’t ended for good. I have the book, nowhere did it say that Shadowmoor was the final phase that Lorwyn/Shadowmoor would go through. The cycle takes a very long time, though. And Rhys existed in both versions. His Redeemed version made tokens, though. And at the time that Nissa would have been around, if Rhys was alive, it would have been before he got exiled. And we don’t know what a Daen is. Nath might very well be the leader and a Daen is his wife/mate.

          • Phil Bowles

            Well, it now seems she was around for the Great Aurora at least…

          • EddieDeanofIgnorance

            Yeah, I saw that. Which means Nath is/was still the leader of the Gilt-Leaf. And Daen is some title we still don’t know the significance of. Hopefully Nissa’s origin story will explain.

            I was reading MaRo’s article today about how it was decided which planeswalkers went to which worlds. I was surprised when he explained Lorwyn was decided upon for Nissa. I could have sworn when Nissa was first introduced to us, it was mentioned that her first planeswalk (understood as when her spark ignited) landed her on Lorwyn. I’ve been trying to find the article where she was introduced to see if I misread something.

  • lost_woof

    Does anyone else think that Dark Petition is too good to be true?

    • Phil Bowles

      Not outside Commander. Sidisi 2 is already a 5-mana tutor who’s generally more useful than a conditional Dark Ritual – not much you’ll want to tutor for with a 5 mana spell will only cost BBB. It’s strictly better than Diabolic Tutor, but Diabolic wasn’t really playable when it was printed.

      • magicdai

        There may not be much you want to tutor for for bbb, but it gives you the chance to cast something else from your hand

      • magicgui

        I’d argue against using strictly in this situation, but it is generally better than Diabolic, and I see two potential homes for it, storm and Commander (and it doesn’t fit into all of either of those), outside of those, unlikely.

        • I could actually see it as a 1 of in legacy storm as an unconditional tutor.

  • Alex Egertsen

    Anyone See the sweetness that Alesha is going to gain from all of these renowned creatures? They only need to deal combat damage. let alone Alesha revives any of the 5 planeswalkers(that feels like it was on purpose). She doesn’t interact to friendly with Liliana but she does do a few thinks now that we can use a few exploit creatures. I just bought up 8 of them on mtgo and I think I might go get another playset this week as I believe she is to be a sleeper with all of these sweet cards that compliment her abilities very well. Remember Alesha is a 3 drop so she can hit off CoCo

  • Phil Bowles

    No idea how to evaluate this card, but The Great Aurora is an amazingly green thing to do, and in a way that fits the card name perfectly (the Great Aurora being the event that causes Lorwyn to cycle into Shadowmoor, and vice versa). It’s so expensive, but the sort of deck that wants this is doing green’s permanent-spamming thing, probably with elves (and, why not, Secure the Wastes. Every soldier token becomes a card). It’s a bizarre cross between a green Wrath, a green Timetwister, Collective Unconscious, and Fastbond. Commander’s bound to have a use for it.

    • Sorter

      Tokens don’t get shuffled they insta-die.

      • Jazzyboy1

        They do get shuffled technically. They just cease existing when you try to shuffle them… so you physically never actually shuffle them. But technically, in-game, they are shuffled. So you do draw the cards for how many of them you shuffled.

        • Sorter

          Didn’t know that, good to know.

  • fredrik

    its funny with all new cards and the “Alhammarret’s Archive” was rely good in my life deck

  • Captain Sunshine

    For a decent standard deck, I think renown with the Abzan guys that give creatures with +1/+1 counters certain abilities would be sweet.

  • Jazzyboy1

    How many mythics or rares is this now? I hope this isn’t it because we still haven’t got a rare soldier lord /:

    Though I just read the species of the origins article and apparently Gideon’s theme is mainly Renown for some reason. Even though he has no synergy with renown at all… on any of his cards. Ugh, Wizards’ design decisions irritate me sometimes.

    I like Renown but Gideon’s a soldier. If they really want to make him anything else, they should make the cards fit the theme. He’s a bomb but he has no synergy in decks that rely on enchanting or buffing one or only a few creatures. He’s good on his own… or in a soldier deck.

    • Phil Bowles

      15 mythics – I’ve read there should be 16, so there’s one left and it’s probably either black or black-themed (as Jaya’s Goggles seems to count as the third red mythic). If UB is Zombies, there’s probably a Zombie lord rare we haven’t seen, and it may be that there’s a rare lord cycle after all (counting Piledriver and Dwynen.

      Some of the plane themes were certainly unexpected; Simic ramp’s downright odd, but it’s a nice change for ramp to be out of GR and I’m very interested to see what land recursion tools we get to break Molten Vortex more than it is naturally. UB graveyard is also not that common, but it should play well with exploit. WR looked like an enchantment theme – it doesn’t seem to have any particular need for renown, and Auras+Equipment would fit the ‘buff soldiers’ idea without using a mechanic that’s the only defining feature of WG. Going big isn’t what WR is best-known for and isn’t a good fit for the Akroan archetype in Theros.

      As for the PWs, Nissa has no synergy with elves either, and more with ramp (Simic) than ‘land recursion’ (Zendikar). I don’t think the archetypes were designed around the walkers.

    • Melissa Juice

      According to the article, the Red-White theme is “Go wide”, not Renown.

      • Jazzyboy1

        I think it’s still mainly renown, just broader than before so that they can do enchantments and stuff.

        Still doubting we’re gonna see a soldier lord at this point though. I very much hope we do but I don’t trust Wizards after Nissa.

        • Melissa Juice

          lol

          Oh, hush. One card and you don’t trust an entire company. haha

      • Phil Bowles

        That was apparently its theme coming out of development – the final theme is renown.

        • Melissa Juice

          Ohhh, I must’ve read that backwards, then. Makes sense.

          • Phil Bowles

            He put it in the article in a rather unintuitive way (the early version after the final version). I’m loving practically everything about the design of this set so far, which is a huge improvement over Dragons’ suite of often capable but for the most part desperately unimaginative cards; however I think renown is a misstep given the way it’s been forced into these two archetypes.

            Not the mechanic itself, but for what they want to accomplish both thematically and mechanically they’d have been better off just using heroic – it gets bonus points for already being an Akros Limited archetype in Theros, but heroism is very fitting thematically for Bant. GW could happily use either mechanic, but if they want to use the mechanic for both guilds, and WR has an aura subtheme, heroic is an obviously better fit overall.

    • BigBantBeast

      Wait, how does Gideon not have synergy with Renown? Kytheon/Gideon himself may not solely synergize with the mechanic but all the cards that deal with his story line do. Most of the soldiers and/or white cards have a tapping theme to them. If you have multiples of these out (Kytheon’s Irregulars, Grasp of the Heiromancer and Akroan Jailer are good examples), allow you to tap out your opponent’s creatures which makes it easier for Renown to go off. We also haven’t seen all the commons yet and I’m REALLY hoping they reprint Aqueous Form from Theros or (at the very least) Tricks of the Trade from M13 to help enable Renown. It also looks like Gideon’s Lawkeeper and Gideon’s Avenger would work well in the current tap-theme they’re making.

    • Fakeromon .

      There will be 16 mythics and 55 rares.

  • skotkrkdkelelrkrlr

    Great Aurora seems pretty strong in Azusa. Shuffle in all your creatures and lands and drop some huge thing while everyone else is still recovering? Seems pretty nice.

  • bob

    i think goblin glory chaser and goblin piledriver are going to turn mono red into mono goblins and its going to dominate standard until rotation. i know alot of people wont like it but i have to point it outt. pre order on piledriver is already 15$ and the old one s 40$ so i jsut hvae to hope i open 2 in my box or my friend gets one i can borrow and im gunna use my dads oldo ne that is currently in his goblin comander deck. im also picking red at prerelease since they made it easier to not have to play the color you picked and i just want the extra chance to get another piledriver.

    • Phil Bowles

      I don’t think mono-red is doing well in Standard right now, will probably get worse with the loss of Stoke the Flames (not to mention we don’t yet have confirmation that Lightning Strike is being reprinted – it’s likely, but the spell mastery common may replace it) and I don’t see Goblinising it changing that – Piledriver isn’t as good in Standard as Rabblemaster and no one’s going to be dropping Zurgo or Swiftspear for goblins. Glory Chaser is nice, but may not be good enough as it will often force you to spend your second turn clearing the way for it to get through, rather than playing extra creatures (unless Hammerhand gets a reprint). Meanwhile Collected Company goes from strength to strength with the reveals here and, while elves may not have enough support to be a Standard deck until Zendikar – since there are currently only two playable elves in Standard (one of which requires white) and they’re both rotating out with M15 – they’re very definitely worth watching.

      • Are you kidding? We still have Foundry Street and Rabble until Zendikar comes out. Goblins is going to be insanely good while Piledriver is Running around with Dragon Fodder, Outburst, Rabblemaster, Foundry Street, Stoke, Glory Chaser, and Frenzied Goblin.

        • Phil Bowles

          Yes, we do … and none of those cards (save Stoke and the token-generators in different archetypes) have proved to work terribly well in the midrange-dominated Standard formats, either in Khans or now that Dragons has evolved; they’re just too bad against the green decks, and Standard is once again thoroughly green. Mono-red dominated only early in these formats and in Fate Reforged – in the last Channel Fireball ranking of the top 8 cards in Standard there isn’t a single red card other than Atarka, who is hardly a good card for monored. I look ahead to the rotation because there’s basically no chance of Glory Chaser seeing play while Denizen is in the format (though Subterranean Scout has a chance), and I wouldn’t count on Piledriver in any deck whose 1-drops include 4 Humans and 4 Orcs – if it’s hitting at any point after turn 2 it just trades with an Heir of the Wilds (or not even that with a Deathdealer).

          • Core sets often introduce new decks and reinvigorate old decks, Mono Red has its weeks just like every other deck that is played. Mono Red Goblins is going to be a powerhouse thanks to the addition of another 1 drop as well as another 2 drop. Midrange is doing well, so is control and so are various Aggro strategies. Yes Channel Fireball is a good source of information that is given by the pros that work there, however the pros can be wrong, in fact they’re wrong a lot. The deck plays multiple burn spells to clear out early blockers and to kill the opponent late game. The worst card in most Red Aggro decks is Zurgo, he can be easily replaced with Glory Chaser.

          • Phil Bowles

            The power rankings CFB uses are based on the frequency of cards used in tournament-leading decks, rather than a sample of pros’ opinions, I believe. The current list is two weeks old, but the major change more recently than that is that Collected Company has made its presence known – which only hurts red. Monored usually only shines early in a format, but I doubt it will even get that chance with the current tools the midrange decks have at their disposal. The new cards we’ve seen don’t really help it. Green decks beat red decks because they have speed on their side – they get out creatures too big and/or numerous to bypass or burn out before monored gets them into the danger zone (and often have incidental lifegain to boot).

            Glory Chaser does nothing to beat that – in fact the green decks are where it’s weakest. It can help get through a Courser if you can trigger it, but it’s not easy to get it through once and it’s a dead card if topdecked, or even drawn two or three turns in. Why replace Zurgo with a card that’s usually worse and which requires support? Piledriver, too, is weak to green – it does get through Caryatid and Courser (and Scaleguard Sentinels, a card I’ve played to very good effect against the local formula red decks), but trades with the very early game creatures green decks play specifically to hold off the red decks and is exceptionally bad against Dromoka’s Command. It’s generally a good rule of thumb that you don’t beat a bad matchup by replacing cards in your deck with ones that are particularly weak to those decks’ most common answers. Origins might well add something to reinvigorate monored, but if so we haven’t seen it yet (Molten Vortex will help, but needs card draw red usually lacks to be a good monored card), and certainly no goblins save Subterranean Scout. Both Piledriver and Chaser are very bad against Collected Company, as well, a card very much in the ascendant and which more unequivocally gets tools from Origins. Then there’s Elves – if it is an archetype straight out of Origins, Dwynen is the half of Wingmate Roc that really hurts red, and he’s cheaper. Bad news for red there too.

          • With the speed of Mono Red and the reliability of its removal against the early game of the big green decks makes it a good choice. Mono red is getting the tools to over power the green decks quickly. The speed and how fast mono red can get in big hits against control. Mono Red has a real good chance of breaking through and coming out to be one of the top decks once again.

          • Phil Bowles

            Its removal isn’t reliable against the green decks right now – it can waste burn against creatures that Dromoka’s Command out of range, it can’t answer Deathmist Raptor or beat Den Protector’s card advantage, Collected Company can be a turn 3 play and Courser of Kruphix (or Scaleguard Sentinels) turn 2, at least two tuns before Stoke can come online. GR/Temur – an especially bad match for monored – gets to do much of that and burn the red deck’s creatures for good meaure. Monored is usually strong against control – that’s not where it needs help. Two creatures of marginal playability don’t give it any new tools – repeatable sources of damage like Molten Vortex help more, but then you aren’t looking at anything resembling a goblin deck.

          • Lightning Strike, Stoke, Roast and Searing Blood all kill greens acceleration and what they use to start smoothing out its draws. The big green decks don’t even use Dromoka’s Command. With the ability to also go wide so early they can swarm the green decks and kill them fast. Stoke is almost always online once you untap on turn 3, unless they have free mana just hanging out on the first turn Courser isn’t out before Stoke can kill it. Having creatures that quickly begin to out class blockers or force the hand to take an extra 2-6 damage when they otherwise wouldn’t have to is Red’s game plan and that’s exactly what Piledriver and Glory Chaser do. The only reason that RG/Temur hurt Mono Red right now is that they can swarm just as fast in some circumstances, with Glory Chaser that’s a lot harder to do just because it gains menace and Green almost never blocks a creature turn 1 or 2 because they need the acceleration in the match-up.

          • Phil Bowles

            Piledriver outclasses blockers more slowly than Foundry Street Denizen in a matchup where you need speed. If green lets a Chaser through turn 2 to preserve an elf, come turn 3 it has an elf and another creature, and can afford to lose the elf (barring burn, indeed, but spending a turn burning a mana elf leaves red behind because it gains them no tempo in a match where card advantage and the long game favour green). Certainly if by ‘big green’, as it now appears, you mean assorted devotion/monogreen strategies red’s favoured more than it is against the dual-coloured and tricolor decks, but monogreen isn’t really played much at the moment.

            RG/Temur can race monored – Glory Chaser doesn’t change this calculation because this is one of the few matches where the opponent is attacking. When you’re attacking with Knuckleblades, Surrak and Boon Satyrs you don’t care about 2/2s (or indeed blocking), and ramp + Crater’s Claws with the ferocious trigger is a better finisher than the red deck’s burn. Yes, you’ve got Stoke, but those decks have more 4 toughness creatures than you have Stokes. All of the cases you’re making for Glory Chaser can be made for Ire Shaman, and that never really made the cut in the red decks (rather to my surprise).

          • Who said that Piledriver didn’t? It sure wasn’t me! The deck needs more cards that can consistently do it though. And “barring burn”? The deck can conceivably have about 10-12 burn spells, that’s high chance of having one in your first 9 cards. All of the decks that have the threatening big creatures are what I, along with many other players, consider as big green decks. It covers devotion and green midrange decks.

            Since all of the cards that you listed for RG/Temur aren’t seeing that much play anyway Mono Red can feel confident that they cont have to face those cards. As an additional note, yes Thunderbreak and Stormbreath are scary but by the time that they are relevant they won’t matter much.

          • Phil Bowles

            The problem with burn against mana creatures is that it loses red tempo it can’t afford to lose against the green decks – in a not-uncommon best case for green it costs them one turn, and they easily have that much leeway to get into the game. A burn spell fired at a mana elf is a creature that isn’t being played as a source of repeatable damage, not to mention a burn spell that isn’t being used to hit a threat, in a deck that’s much less likely than the green one to have card draw. At the same time the red deck can hardly afford not to use burn against elves, because otherwise the big fast creature that comes out may well be something the red deck can’t deal with. Really, if your turn 3 play is to kill an elf so that a 2/2 can get through you’re already on the back foot. From the green side of the match, if I have more than 10 life remaining by turn 5 I’m usually pretty confident I’ve won the game – it’s a match where red needs to push harder and faster to win than it does against nearly anything else. We’re long past the days when green was sunk without a mana elf because all its creatures cost 4+ – if the turn 1 elf dies there’s a 2-drop next turn instead of the 3-drop you were going to play, or a 3-drop (something green now has viable representatives of) instead of the 4-drop.

            The Temur cards I mentioned are being relatively little-used because Temur is underused right now (not sure why – it’s not amazing against Company, but it’s extremely strong against Esper, slightly favoured in GR, and of course sinks monored. I find it weak to Mardu, but is that even a thing outside Magic Online?). If you’re in that match, you have problems these additions won’t help with. Chaser is too small, Piledriver is too slow (though it’s good at blocking Knuckleblades).

          • Searing Blood is one of the best burn spells in standard, the one downside that is only bad against Esper. Searing Blood is the best burn spell to keep tempo against the big green decks in the format. I honestly couldn’t care less about a 2 mana creature on turn 2 because they can’t block Glory Chaser and they still want their acceleration to ramp.
            Temur doesn’t see play because it’s bad. Mardu and Mardu Dragons have been doing really well on both the GP and SCG circuit. Piledriver isn’t slow at all. It’s active on turn 3, the same turn that Rabble does and Piledriver hits much harder. Glory Chaser passively gets bigger than Swiftspear and is much harder to block.

          • Phil Bowles

            Piledriver is active on turn 3 and hits for 3 – the same as Borderland Marauder, which saw very limited play and none at all once better options (including Mardu Scout, which has itself fallen from favour, Fodder and dashable Zurgo) became available in the 2-drop slot. And it’s that good only if your first turn play is a goblin, which by and large you don’t want it to be unless it’s Foundry Street Denizen.

            For that you’re sacrificing haste or numbers on turn 2. Piledriver has the potential to get better, but its absolute best-case scenario is that turn 1 goblin, plus Heelcutter or a Rabblemaster token on turn 3 – then, it’s dealing 5, where Denizen can deal 4 on the same turn with only Hordeling Outburst, a much more consistent line. The payoff gets better from there if it somehow survives, but to give it any consistency at all you’re sacrificing non-goblins in the deck to play mostly inferior creatures that happen to have the right creature type, and all to have Piledriver turn on at a point in the game where no one cares about trading their least valuable creature for a 2-toughness goblin.

            Yes, Searing Blood is a good play, and Wizards has been given red more of this ‘hits both players and creatures’ effect recently precisely because it has these problems with green, and other cheap creature, decks. But that drops your burn count from 10-12 relevant cards to 4.

            Blocking Glory Chaser is the correct play – red needs cards more than green needs fast mana in a matchup where green only needs to stabilise early, not win. Red’s window to win the game means that the red player has 10-11 cards to play with in total: lands, creatures and burn together. Once they run out, nothing they can topdeck beats a developed board on the other side. Any 1-for-1 trade is good for the opponent, whatever the identity of the card being traded, because life is a more valuable resource in the match than mana. That’s why Rabblemaster and tokens are so good – not because Rabblemaster itself hits for a lot (in fact it often doesn’t attack). Piledriver is far worse than Rabblemaster, as it gives you no card advantage. Glory Chaser looks better than it is if your experience is playing against overly cautious players who preserve elves at all costs, and blocking a single creature with two creatures is not a difficult task – Blood Chin Rager is dangerous because the entire army gets menace, not a single creature. Swiftspear has haste, can toughness-pump to beat enemy burn or survive blockers, and rewards you for playing burn spells.

          • Any Goblin that you can play that gets you advantage by either restricting blockers or quickly becoming bigger faster are good plays on turns 1 and 2 in an aggressive deck. Dashable Zurgo is really negligible considering, as I already mentioned, that he is the worst creature in the deck. Yes, Piledriver is hitting for 3 on turn 3. That’s more damage than most creatures do on that turn regardless, you don’t need the god draw of 1, 2, 3 drop goblins in a row to get value from him, I’m fine just going 1 drop, 2 drop, burn. If they are trading their least valuable creature for a 2 toughness creature on any turn after 4 you’re already losing that game but hoping to be able to burn them out by getting in a few cheap hits every so often.
            What I really want to know is how you went from 10-12 burn spells to 4 when Searing Blood will only take up to 2-3 slots in the main.
            Trading any creature in the match is bad, green wants to get out fast, they only trade if their hand isn’t yet equipped to handle an extra early threat from the Mono Red player. All of the best goblins to put in the are warriors, so it isn’t inconceivable to splash black for 1-3 copies of Rager if the builder sees fit.

          • Phil Bowles

            The point about Zurgo is that he’s simply better than Goblin Glory Chaser – you may think dropping him’s negligible, but in that case why replace him with a creature that’s not even as good as your weakest creature? Red can’t afford to play Mons’ Goblin Raiders just because it’s a goblin.

            Piledriver may be hitting for, perhaps, 1 more than “most creatures do regardless” but again look at the context – Borderland Marauder hits for the same 3, and is not played. Mardu Scout hits for the same 3, and was barely played (and then mainly because it added RR to red devotion). Red is not particularly in the market for 2 drop creatures, and those it uses really need to be Eidolons of the Great Revel-quality. No one even runs Dragon Whisperer and that has an ability that by rights the red decks should want above almost all others – it can fly and so get past most blockers.

            What I’m saying re Searing Blood is not that you have fewer burn spells in the deck, but that it’s only those (at most) 4 that are giving you an advantage – Lightning Striking an Elvish Mystic hurts you more than the green player. The only two cards I ever worry about killing an elf in that matchup are, indeed, Searing Blood and Magma Jet, the latter because of the scry.

            What you’re not appreciating is that costing the red player a turn’s investment is exactly equivalent to the mana the green player’s getting from the elf. The red player needs turn 1 to count; the green player doesn’t since there’s nothing green decks do on turn 1 in most cases. Most don’t run that many 1-drop elves, so they’re built to survive games where they don’t play a card on turn 1 – which is of course equivalent to playing and trading a card. Obviously if green has an answer in hand they’d rather keep the elf and play the answer instead, but equally obviously that’s not much good for the red player anyway. Whatever route the green player chooses, it’s better for them than it is for the red player to trade a card.

          • Zurgo has many more downsides than Glory Chaser. Zurgo can’t block, if it has to come to that. Zurgo is legendary so you can’t have more than one out at a time and a lot of the time have one rotting in your hand. Zurgo is also a lot easier to block than Glory Chaser, Glory Chaser either takes up 2 blockers or none which helps red’s go wide plan.

            Piledriver does one thing that all of those creatures don’t, e gets around blue spells. He can’t be blocked by Silumgars or Ojutais. Yes I know that they aren’t green but that is such an advantage in the format where some of the best decks play those creatures.

            All burn spells are relevant against green decks. You want to hold the opponent off of, say, a Whisperwood Elemental.

            The only green decks that aren’t built to help accelerate into a bigger midgame are Abzan, which red is already decent against. Abzan is built to survive, other decks are made to play big spells and dragons to end the game between turns 7-9.

          • Phil Bowles

            If it does have to come to blocking with Zurgo, you’re either against an aggressive deck where you’d side him out or losing. You’re also seeing Glory Chaser as a straight 2/2 menace, which it isn’t. More than one Glory Chaser is effectively dead in most cases, since only the first will ever get to trigger, and you pretty much have to get it into play on turn one. I’d rather have a 2/2 dash in hand on the slim offchance that an opponent has the effrontery to kill the one in play, or so that I can trade favourably with it, than a 1/1 that will almost always just be a 1/1. Glory Chaser isn’t much better than Honored Hierarch, and that’s not playable.

            The reason I’m neglecting the Esper decks is twofold: firstly, they contain black and white cards as their ptimary removal, so prot blue isn’t anything other than a ‘can’t be blocked’ clause and other creatures can give you that. Secondly, control is the best matchup for monored to begin with – you don’t help itr dominate by making it good in the matchups where it’s already favoured,.

            Of course burn spells are relevant against green decks, but they’re bad early plays if you can’t avoid them – you want to be burning Whisperwoods, not Coursers, Heir of the Wilds or mana elves. The first three turns are when red has to get its creatures into play (it’s no coincidence that monored doesn’t play creatures costing more than that – Heelcutter is invariably played as a 3-drop).

            It’s not a question of what the deck’s ‘built’ to do, it’s a question of its resilience. A deck built so that it will generally end the game on turn 7-9 if it rushes can happily win the game on turn 20 against a monored deck, simply because the red player can’t do anything when he’s still drawing 2- and 3-drops when you’re drawing Atarka and playing it naturally. The deck’s not going to be racing the red deck to beat down first, so one mana here or there makes no difference. A deck that may be the aggro deck in a slower matchup is perfectly happy turtling against red – all it needs to do is survive until the red deck goes into topdeck mode.

          • Glory Chaser early game will be a 2/2 Menace a lot more than you are giving it credit for. I’d rather have the card that can block to buy a few extra turns to draw the finishing burn spell or can get through a few extra points to get the burn spell to be lethal without necessarily being able to be blocked.

            Esper ONLY plays white for Ojutai. Not being able to be blocked OR taken is really big in the match up. Esper is favored now with the addition of Foul-Tongue.

            There’s a reason that the phrase is “Bolt the Bird”. You want to kill the acceleration as fast as you can. Killing an Elvish Mystic or Courser on curve is never bad especially if it slows them down enough.

            Mono Red can win when it gets to turn 20 if they draw the right burn spells. Going into topdeck mode isn’t necessarily the path to win.

          • Phil Bowles

            Even if Glory Chaser 1 is indeed a 2/2 more often than I give it credit for, Chasers 2-4 aren’t, and that’s not an acceptable price. When the deck already runs cards like Heelcutter and Hammerhand, menace can be a redundant ability, and most of the decks you’ll struggle with – save some of the green decks – can fly over any potential blockers. Being able to block is too marginal a benefit.

            Who would steal a Piledriver with Silumgar? The deck has no goblins to play with it, and it’s unlikely that that’s your only or best way to remove Piledriver. White gives access to several potential sideboard cards; Surge of Righteousness is cheaper than Foul-Tongue, hits everything in your deck, gives life without needing to have a dragon in hand or play, and can’t be circumvented by sacrificing Goblin tokens.

            The reason being that the phrase is 20 years old? Green isn’t sunk these days without mana elves. It’s true that burning Elves is better for you in general than not burning them, if only because otherwise they’ll trade with one of your creatures and a persistent threat is less expendable than a burn spell. But that just returns to the precise point I made – if I have an elf and you have a Mons’ Goblin Chaser, I’m going to trade unless I’m desperate to cast a particular 3-mana card next turn (not likely) or am short of land (more likely). And even then I probably will since I’d have to consider the possibility that you have a burn spell to play after combat, in which case I still lose the elf but take damage as well. Evidently option 1 is to be preferred.

            I haven’t denied that – what I’ve said is that being in that situation is still bad for the red deck. It costs you tempo and a burn spell, and all you get from it is to prevent the green deck getting a turn ahead of you – it doesn’t set the green player behind. And the same applies to the green player trading the creature for one of yours – unless the mana producer genuinely is a Bird of Paradise, you don’t want to be using cards in your deck that rely on the green player not blocking. The green player is favoured if they don’t block; they’re even more favoured if they do.

          • Glory Chasers 2-4 can also be 2/2s, there are plenty of circumstances in standard that it is likely to happen to allow them to get the counter.

            Piledriver without pro blue would always be the first to be taken because it would have the biggest implications of doing the most damage to the defending player if not dealt with in sufficient time. There are also many circumstances that it would happen given that it didn’t have pro blue.

            Bolting a “Bird” has stood the test of time through Magic’s history. In every format, without exception, you want to do whatever you can to stop your opponents early acceleration. Regardless of whether or not they’re “sunk” without a dork, they may be incentivized to keep a hand relying on the dork to pull them through. Even though there are only up to 4 copies allowed in standard Elvish mystic is the most important card to play on turn 1 in the current standard.

            In addition to being able to sit there waiting to draw to sufficient burn spells there are more than 1 way in standard to accelerate the rate at which you draw them to make the odds a lot closer to even than they otherwise would be, while 1 has a decent body on its own.

          • Phil Bowles

            Further Chasers can be 2/2s, but will be much more rarely than the first, which usually only will be on the play or against decks like control that don’t have many creatures (in which case menace is a pointless ability, and you just have a bunch of 2/2s with the drawback that they only hit for 1 in their first attack). The card’s just not reliable enough to be good and the payoff when it is seems very unlikely to outweigh the risk of putting an otherwise vanilla 1/1 in your deck. It’s a card that can be moderately good or can be terrible; I’d want a creature that can be great given the alternative when it isn’t.

            Taking Piledriver without pro blue would probably be a misplay in most cases, because it’s a 1/2. You want whatever you steal to be able to trade with an opponent’s card, and since anything with 2 power can kill Piledriver while blocking it ceases to be a threat when Silumgar comes down, pro blue or no pro blue.

            I think the elf discussion has run its course – it started out merely by pointing out that blocking a red deck with an elf on turn 1 is a good move, and somehow seems to have gone wildly off-tangent into a discussion of the value of mana elves, which is hardly in dispute. Yes, it is the most important turn 1 play in Standard (a Standard with practically no other non-red turn 1 plays, but still), but part of that importance does lie in its ability to trade with removal or a turn 1 creature from a more aggressive deck. If a green deck has a turn 1 elf, it’s got an advantage over monored whatever it does with that elf. This I suspect you’ll agree with – it wouldn’t be the format’s most important 1-drop if it didn’t provide a substantial advantage.

          • “Only on the play or against decks like control”. So about half of the games you play or against one of the decks that you need a constant stream of threats to close the game out quickly. A card that at worst is a 1/1 that you can have multiples of and can block, is better than a 2/2 that rots in your hand while you can’t block to enable the said card in hand. There isn’t much risk to a card in red that can gain evasion, if the opponent doesn’t respect it. It’s a card that can and will end games, which is great by the way, and at worst will just be another 1/1 in a deck of X/1s and X/2s.

            Piledriver would always be the biggest threat against Control decks, in many cases he may be the 1 creature threatening to end the game the next turn. When a lot of the creatures in a Mono Red deck have 1 power on your opponents turn blocking an X/2 with any of those creatures is really fruitless, playing a Silumgar against Mono Red also just turns on Searing Blood to either double burn Silumgar and deal 3 to the controller, getting back that which was stolen, or to just kill the thing that they stole and get in with the army. Those situations will happen in standard.

            “Practically no other non-red turn 1 plays”. Thoughtseize, Warden, Honored Hierarch, Duress, and some others that are seeing fringe play. Almost every deck has access to a turn 1 play, including Control. The green deck doesn’t necessarily have and advantage over the red deck if it lands a turn 1 elf, there are plenty of hands where if the elf dies the green player just loses. trading 3 life for a mana dork is almost always wrong. The acceleration in the match up is extremely important because the green decks want to get out its heavy hitters as soon as possible to stop the red deck from moving forward.

          • Phil Bowles

            No, about half of the games are when the card is potentially good. The number of those games in which you actually have the card in hand on turn 1 is around 50% if you have four in the deck – so you’re banking on odds of 25% to play an effective Glory Chaser on turn 1. A 1/1 for 1 would be borderline playable in red if this card were judged in isolation – but it’s in a field crowded with red 1-drops, of which this is one of the worst, and one of those has to go. Even if you want to cut Zurgo – who is apparently immortal (sure, your opponent can choose not to kill him but if that’s the case he’s probably getting through to deal damage unless they have a Caryatid, so he might as well have menace) – you have a whole field of ‘also-rans’ that aren’t automatic inclusions in the deck, such as Frenzied Goblin, Satyr Hoplite and Akroan Crusader, which might be preferred for his slot.

            Yes, there will be cases when you’d prefer to take the Piledriver instead of another creature because the opponent could be holding up burn. That’s why I said it is probably a misplay to take it “in most cases” – getting to turn 6+ with a red player having cards in hand, while you have no removal or counterspells, and your opponent has multiple creatures still on the board, is not “most cases” – and the cases where it is the case are ones where you’re winning anyway. Given that Piledriver doesn’t become a threat until at least turn 5 and Silumgar just stole one of the goblins he can attack with, there will rarely be any realistic prospect that he can end the game next turn. Piledriver’s need for multiple friends to support him actually seems likely to make him rather weak to control – Piledriver into Outburst into Silumgar’s Scorn is not going to be an uncommon scenario and costs you two turns for a single counterspell when all you’re left with is a 1/2 and a turn 1 play that, even if you replace Zurgo with a goblin, has perhaps a 50% chance of being a goblin rather than a human unless you’re willfully taking less effective 1-drops just to play nicely with Piledriver (whose payoff doesn’t justify doing so).

            Okay, I was neglecting noncreature spells like Thoughtseize – I had in mind Warden and Mardu Shadowspear as the only other options. Honored Hierarch is not a serious suggestion (though Gnarlroot Trapper may be in elf decks, I don’t see elf decks doing much pre-Zendikar). And however often you repeat the same claim, green is not aiming to win against red by racing it – it wouldn’t work. Of course there are always hands where you lose if an elf dies; there are always hands when you lose if you don’t draw an extra land, too. All green needs to do is get to toughness 4 as soon as possible. That can be as early as turn 2 without an elf (though more commonly with an elf), but it’s hardly fatal if it’s as late as turn 3 – then its walls give it time to build up to all those big hitters that cost the princely sums of 4-5 mana. The most important thing green needs to do to make that strategy work is to avoid being swarmed, and that means doing whatever it needs to remove any card the red player has in play. Repeating ‘acceleration’ has yet to address the point I made that the green player gets acceleration either way in practice: either they get an extra mana next turn, or they get an extra turn because the red player lost their turn 1 attacker (and usually has no turn 2 plays with haste that aren’t dashed) and so isn’t putting any pressure on them.

            This is fundamental to your inflated evaluation of both cards – Chaser is a lot worse when faced with willing sacrifices, and Piledriver is a lot worse when the turn 1 goblin is dead. You don’t just suffer if the green player blocks, you’re actively constructing your deck in a way that makes a play that’s good but arguable – blocking with an elf – much more painful to you than it would be otherwise, which in turn makes it more likely that the opponent will take that line.

          • I am going to preface this by saying that after this I’m done responding on this conversation, mainly because I don’t want to continue arguing against somebody that is completely underestimating the power that these cards have, not just alone but together.

            When I said “about half the games you play” I was saying that somewhere around half of the games you play are going to be on the play. Meaning that in about half of the games you play Glory Chaser is going to be better than you are giving it credit for. Zurgo is far from immortal, however many decks have creatures that can block him alone and just bounce off of each other, namely, Arashin Cleric and Caryatid as the biggest players but there are also others that fade in and out, such as, Nyx-Fleece Ram, Jorubai Murk Lurker, Grim Guardian, Karametra’s Acolyte, a non-heroiced Lagona Band Trailblazer, Meletis Astronomer, Omen Speaker, and Sidisi’s Faithful, none of which can block a renowned Glory Chaser alone.

            I never said that there was no removal, you assumed that. Going in the dark the Control player in MOST CASES will keep a slower hand with 2-3 tapped lands as their first plays of the game, not being able to efficiently kill or counter the creatures on time. In those cases you aren’t “winning anyway”, there are still plenty of blowouts. Crux would ruin the day right there. The payoff of getting ridiculously large in a short time frame and getting in wit hits from either him or other creatures along the way to be able to burn them out. The payoff is completely justified.

            Honored Hierarch is yet another card whose power level you are neglecting, he is most likely the closest thing we will get to a 1 mana accelerant for a long time. The fact the fact that he gets vigilance and taps for any colored mana is huge, and all you have to do is hit with him once. At this point I’m just tired of you not realizing the power that renown has and how good it will be in constructed.

            You are not seeing the power level of cards when considering that along with this set adding to the current standard it will also change it and add new decks into the fray. Piledriver’s power isn’t just derived from the turn one goblins that you play, it’s also based on the raw power that it gets from being feared by the opponent. Chaser is almost always going to get through with its first attack, be it because of burn or the lack of being able or wanting to block. If they do block they are pushing themselves further back than if they had by making it much harder to get out an early big creature to begin shoring up the game. By constructing my deck in such a way that allows me to get value by letting them push the selves further back so early in the game while not having to spend all of my resources after they already flood the board puts me in a favorable position. I’d be fine with either line that they take considering the harm that they are also doing to themselves.

          • Phil Bowles

            I know exactly what you’re saying, and it’s consistent with the figure I gave. In half the games, you’re on the play. In half the games, you can expect to have at least one copy of 4-of card in your opening hand. As there’s no reason you’re more likely to have the card in your opening hand on the play than on the draw, you have it in around 25% of games when you’re on the play and don’t mulligan. Those are worse odds than I’d want for a card that isn’t playable on its own merits when not renowned.

            I’m counting Crux of Fate as removal. You may well be right that people will be unduly scared of Piledriver; then again, no one was unduly scared of Nantuko Shade or Stormbind when they came back. Piledriver simply isn’t fast, a point you keep neglecting despite the turn times he needs to come online – an otherwise useless creature on turn 2, a probably non-hasty play on turn 3, and he’s commonly hitting for 5 at best on turn 4 unless you have Hordeling Outburst or multiple 1-2 drop goblins (and, as already noted, too many of the better options in those slots are not goblins). That’s a turn away from Crux and certainly time for the Esper deck to have untapped lands available.

            Evidently one of us is misjudging renown’s potential on small creatures – while most of your points on Glory Chaser are arguable, that you’re even considering Honored Hierarch tells me it probably isn’t me (that, and/or you don’t play many green decks). Glory Chaser played as a 1/1 is painful but, as you said yourself, a 1/1 for R is not completely unacceptable in a monored deck. It is much less acceptable in green decks – decks which also tend to have fewer ways to clear blockers. That however is not the core failing of this card; the core failing is that it has to attack, and so tap, on its second turn. It’s providing you with no mana until turn 3, at which point you might as well be casting Caryatids or Rattleclaws as your mana elves. It does free up your turn 2 play, which is not insignificant, but plenty of recent decks have run Caryatid over Mystic instead of the two together. For larger creatures you want to ramp into, the so-far-neglected Shaman of Forgotten Ways is more playable (or simply the briefly-popular Frontier Siege) – Atarka doesn’t care whether you got your extra mana into play on turn 1 or turn 3 if she’s going to enter play on turn 4 either way.

            Come to that we don’t yet know why Elvish Mystic has been dropped – core sets (and others) have in the past had mana elves and Ley Druids together (including Theros, which contained both a functional reprint of Leaf Gilder and Voyaging Satyr), so it’s not impossible that Arbor Elf will take the 1-drop slot. Or Abundant Growth, come to that. Less likely, given what we’ve already seen, there could be some kind of 1-cost conditional Rampant Growth effect. Personally I suspect Gnalroot Trapper is the only one-drop mana producer we’ll see other than Honored Hierarch, both of which seem to fit a pattern of making green mana production slower and/or conditional before we’re swamped with Eldrazi, but that’s far from guaranteed. Even if it is the case Honored Hierarch isn’t going to be playable outside a very specific type of mana hungry deck that desperately needs to start spamming 5-drops on turn 3. Even then it may not make the cut since you can’t rely on getting even that delayed mana.

          • bob

            ive had like really easy wins withmy mono reddeck just have to sideboard the guy who cant be blocked by creatures with power one or less agianst mono green. i personally play alot of mono red and i dont care what star city games is what cards are msot frequently played right now have nothing to do with what will happens after a whole new set somes out. and also i wasnt talking about after rotation i was talking aobut before piledriver isnt a bad card agianst most matchups my most difficult matchups have been control wich means hes good because hes pro blue and reg green dragons wich are gaining very little from the new set so with my local meta it should be a very good deck. i will agree that mono red might not be the best at a pro tour but since not everyone at my local card shop is a rich guy playing abzan midrange it will be in the top 3 list of best decks in my local cards shop and the local game stores of msot people.

          • Phil Bowles

            This isn’t Onslaught any more. I suspect Piledriver is going to be a lot worse in Standard than people expect; perhaps unplayably so a la other reprints from that era. It is not a fast card to activate – at best it hits for 3 on turn 3, equivalent to any number of other options already available; as fun as Hordeling Outburst may seem, you’re then looking at a turn 5 attack at the earliest. That’s not close to being fast enough for a red deck to beat control, which will just kill it or drop a sweeper if it isn’t countered (while it can be ignored if the Outburst is countered). The only relevant card he beats is Encase in Ice.

            RG Dragons gets another 4 drop dragon, so at the very least it’s not getting any worse, and how do either of these cards help beat it? Piledriver is a painfully slow card in the modern Standard, since it has to wait on its goblin friends being able to attack, and there’s a shortage of Standard goblins with haste. Glory Chaser may simply prove slightly too weak to be playable in general; while it’s at least close to playability any of Zurgo, Foundry Street, Frenzied Goblin, Monastery Swiftspear or Lightning Berseker are better cards in most situations, and red decks don’t have room to run all of these.

            If monored’s currently working for you by all means stick with it, but I’m not seeing anything here that’s likely to make it more competitive against decks where it already struggles.

  • MysteriousPerson

    Can we still expect to see the Raven Man being printed in this set? After the article MaRo posted today, I am losing hope… Although, if he ends up being printed in Commander 2015, I would be completely fine with that because he would most likely turn out to be better. Thoughts?

    • Phil Bowles

      We have the art; probably he’ll be, like Taigam, a character represented by a nonlegendary card. It looks as though we get only 5 legends other than the PWs (though contrary to MaRo neither the green or black legends are from the planeswalkers’ home planes).

  • Dem glasses seem good… Damn.

  • goblin slayer

    Goblins i personaly dont think that goblins are going to have this choke hold on standard for the next few months that most people seem to think, there are plenty of floodgate cards in standard that’ll just shut down a goblin deck. Virulent plague gives them what 3 or 4 actual creatures in their deck at that point?

    they’d still have serious weakness to targeted removal or boardwipes or any creature that has 2 attack seeing as they’d only have rabblemaster and piledriver as threatening creatures a few one one tokens isn’t too threatening in standard now.
    Goblins will be a nice deck for mono red or atarka red but its not going to make standard devolve into just a goblin spam format. It’ll just be an irritating deck that’ll pop up then die off

    • Kaiser

      Goblins are goblins xD you just need 3-4 turns to seal the deal if you have luck. But it’s true they are not so deadly in standard than other competitive formats. Still strong options at least before to the rotate of Rabblemaster, Denizen and Frenzied Goblin rotate

  • Looper

    Can’t remember the last time a mono-red deck made a grand prix top 8. I don’t think this set changes much in terms of mono-red

    • Jazzyboy1

      Umm… mono-red made top 8 a month ago. As in, just 2 tournaments ago…

      I think we still need more spoilers before we can confirm that Piledriver’s going to destroy Standard though because;
      1. There aren’t enough goblins and no goblin lords in Standard.
      2. Rabblemaster’s rotating soon unless he gets a reprint. And so’s Foundry Street Denizen.

      Mono-red’s looking good so far though.

      • Glory Chaser, Foundry Street Denizen, Frenzied Goblin, Piledriver, Subterranean Scout, Mardu Scout, Rabblemaster, and Heelcutter. That’s not counting Dragon Fodder or Outburst. How aren’t there enough Goblins?

        • Jazzyboy1

          Rabblemaster, Denizen and Frenzied Goblin rotate in October and Mardu Scout, Heelcutter and Subterrean Scout aren’t strong enough.

          • Giving the ability to not be blocked is way more powerful than people give it credit for. Mardu scout isn’t the best but it does help enable a Goblin build. Yes, yes, those 3 cards are rotating 3 months after this comes out, but how does that stop it from being a deck now?

          • Dave

            Khans and Fate only rotate out next years when the new block after Zendikar hits.

          • I was talking about Rabblemaster, Foundry Street, Stoke, and Frenzied Goblin rotating.

          • Phil Bowles

            I’ve been arguing fairly strongly that Piledriver isn’t good enough for Standard, but really? Heelcutter and Subterranean Scout aren’t strong enough? Heelcutter’s a standard part of the current mono-red builds as a 2- or 3-of and can be the gamewinner. As for the others, red just doesn’t want too many two-drops because that’s where most of its burn is, plus Dragon Fodder – that’s three goblins competing for, perhaps, one slot.

          • DJ Pad

            And you think there will be no goblins in Zendikar?

          • Jazzyboy1

            There probably will be. I wasn’t saying that mono-red isn’t likely to be strong. I was saying that right now, it’s not strong enough unless we get more spoilers; mainly so that Looper didn’t feel too bad about making a completely false comment.

            I honestly have no doubt that Piledriver is going to destroy Standard though, especially if more goblins are spoiled in Origins; and if we don’t get enough goblins in Origins, we definitely will in Zendikar :P

      • Phil Bowles

        More important cards that are rotating: Stoke the Flames, Searing Blood, and – possibly – Lightning Strike.

    • Ryot

      Mono red has never been solid enough to consistently top 8 in a while. Mono red’s best form in this meta was probably in the beginning of Khans set when Monastery Swiftspear was the new “it” card for aggro. Mono red was only so effective then since most other decks were still moving into khans block and didn’t know the power of the new cards. Now, in such a removal heavy meta, mono red aggro really can’t stand up against control/abzan/RG ramp/etc. as it stands now. Atarka red was a step in the right direction, using a second, splashed color to use spell effects they didn’t already have access to. Goblin Piledriver isn’t going to do much to mono red because the meta is much more aggressive and plays faster than before, and most decks have turn two/three plays that can stop red aggro significantly. I am personally ready to start running a Red/White aggro list when origins starts, using the new gideon as another one drop creature and using Soulfire Grandmaster and Monastery Mentor to extend the value of the burn and token spells.

      • Phil Bowles

        Not sure if it won a GP, but didn’t mono-red dominate the FR Pro-Tour? It was strong for a surprisingly long time through Fate; when CFB listed the top 8 cards for Standard late in FR and a couple of weeks later in Dragons, 6-8 cards on the lists were red (as opposed to half a card now).

        I think there is one card here that helps mono-red, but it’s not getting the attention that frankly inferior options like Piledriver and Glory Chaser are: Subterranean Scout (though it does work very well with Piledriver when you have a few more goblins). This I suspect is the set’s replacement for Hammerhand, and will do well in the same role.

  • bob

    most of phils arguements is it looses to green why should i care if it looses to green i play at fnm not everyone is playing green if my mono red decks only weakness is green then i could easily consistantly get top 3 with a mono red deck as i already do before roation mono red is going to be insanely broken

    • Phil Bowles

      Fair enough if you aren’t running into many green decks, but that I suspect is a pretty unrepresentative local metagame. Green is pretty much the default colour of Standard and has been almost since I got back into Magic – green and GB devotion gave way to Abzan and Whip; the latter fell before monored (against which it’s terrible) only for GW devotion to take over, and cycle – after a brief Esper Dragons period – back into Abzan and GR Dragons (which disappointed at first, but has been picked up since), and most recently by the Collected Company builds. A fair number of the individually most powerful cards in Standard – Courser of Kruphix, Den Protector and its best friend Deathmist Raptor, Collected Company, Siege Rhino, Fleecemane Lion, Dragonlords Atarka and Dromoka, Dromoka’s Command, Siege Rhino – are green.

      • bob

        alot of the decks at my local store do contain green but not everyone net decks there( a few people i hate do but that’s for another discussion) and when they d contain green its only for ramp cards like caryatid and courser. i see alot of red white token decks wich are an even matchup agianst mono red and alot of mono red and mono black decks. (i jsut treat the mono black decks as mono red because it does the same thing with imo worse cards).

    • Melissa Juice

      Punctuation is your friend.

  • Phil Bowles

    So, they cheated on the ‘hexproof is no longer evergreen’ clause, I see… Still, your opponent canplay Become Immense on your hasty 8/5 if he wants.

    • Kaiser

      oh yes and that is sooooo epic. Am i the only one who loves Gaea revenge reprint? XDDD

      • EddieDeanofIgnorance

        I own exactly one, so having a chance to get more is nice. Not that I have any deck ideas for it. Just nice to have the option to play it.

    • Hexproof is still evergreen.

  • Scion of the Rowan Tree

    Ooh! I’m starting to see a little bit of thopter/artifact tribal!

    • Captain Sunshine

      It’s fantastic, I’m gonna have some fun with that theme.

  • Algatress

    It upsets me that they reused the land art from previous sets.

    • Algatress

      Some of it, I mean.

      • Phil Bowles

        They usually do.

      • 1) The lands are reused to show the home plane and the first planeswalk.
        2) Core Sets have always reused old basic arts.

    • Melissa Juice

      lol

      They’ve been doing that for years and years and years.

    • Jazzyboy1

      It upsets me that the Plains aren’t as epic as any other land again. I mean, I know it’s hard to make a flat plain of land look awe-inspiring but… they could at least put some kind of flavour scenery in there. Not just some plain old fields.

      Zendikar, Lorwyn and Ravnica had some pretty swag Plains. Maybe they should take inspiration from them. Or they could have reused Alara art instead of Theros art because the Alara plains also looked much better than the Theros plains.

      • They needed to use Theros plains to show Kytheon/Gideon’s home plane. Not disagreeing with Theros having bad plains art.

      • BlahBlahBlahBla

        Shadow921 is correct. And i do agree. The plains art is quite lackluster compared to the others. Good thing you can play with whatever basic lands you want in whatever format you want! Urza’s basics 4eva!

        • Noatzon

          Invasion-block basics <3 I realy love having old basic lands from that era since they both lok pretty and helps different the lands from the rest of my cards witch is nice V:

    • Hafglop

      Since no planeswalker has the same home plane or first planeswalked plane, the only reuse of art is on planes that already had a set (like ravnica or theros) and which a planeswalker came from or first planeswalked to.

  • Jordan

    One more red and black mythic to go correct?

    • Guest

      Technically, red got the goggles artifact. So, black needs one more.

    • Jazzyboy1

      We should get a red black mythic Minotaur lord….

      … Please?

      • cement dorado

        red black minotaur plan